The Death Penalty

[cookiemonster]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
Like most people with a philosophy degree, I ended up writing software...

-- Ian

Nice But then dissecting the finer points of phenomenology on the steps of the student union doesn't really pay as well i suspect.

My job entails keeping things safe and sound - its all very glamourous :SLEEP: . It was also the least demanding job i could find.:MILD: :SLEEP:

 

[cookiemonster]

However, I guess it's just part of human nature isn't it

I think the desire for revenge/retribution are the overriding factors for many, as part of an 'eye for an eye' type credo or just revenge generally?, however, this is not always admitted to outright. It can be a difficult to confess to ones 'aggressive' instinctive emotions - especially in the case of an issue as sensitive as this. It is easier to justify something like this on an abstract issue of deterrence or something, rather than expose ones traits of vengenace.

:SWMBO:

Also, as you said - you have never killed anyone. Could you actually carry out an execution (with impunity) if it was necessary. I think this is a darker area, and a necessary implication of an act that not as many, i suspect, would be willing to perform? ...hence calling for a reassesment of their position? You say you could - i'm just wondering how you would feel afterwards. Relieved, satisfied,vindicated, - pleasure or pain.

 

[julian2002]

cookie,
if a lifetime sentance could be imposed with no possibility of parole where the prisoner financially supported themself totally (or it was paid for by relatives) then i would be in favor of that over the death penalty.
i object mainly to a crap nhs, falling pensions, falling academic standards, rising council tax for basic things like policing, inadequate road and rail networks, pensioners dying of hypothermia, etc. when people like myra hindley were languishing in a prison cell doing a spot of painting and convincing the odd bishop that she'd found jesus. i'd rather that money (20+k p/a i believe) was spent fixing the problems i outlined above.

as i said i'm a firm believer in rehabilitation to the point where it would be legal for a 'rehabilitated' criminal to deny ever having been to jail if it helped him get a real job instead of going back to crime however if he re-offended he should get a custodial sentance then if he re-offended again (withing the crimes i posted) he should face the death penalty or an alternative.

as to would i pull the trigger myself, well, most modern execution methods have some form of random element which makes it difficult to decide who 'pulled the trigger' from guns randomly loaded with blanks to multiple syringes for lethal injection. however if by some quirk of the law it was necessary for me to execute someone convicted of such a heinous crime or crimes that the death penalty was invoked i would probably do it. how is it different from answering the draft and going off to another country to shoot the country's enemies? as that is what criminals such as Shipman are. most ira terrorists would love to have the bodycount he had and they are or were killed in military scuffles every week in the bad old days of northern ireland.

to certain extent i would say that i am an emotional reactionary however i'm aware of this and in most cases have thought about why this is so and either modified my stance (or had it modified for me through discussion) or made my peace with it.
cheers


julian

 

[michaelab]

OK - I've resisted the temptation to get involved here as I usually don't like this kind of thread on forums but here goes:

I'm against the death penalty primarily because it is utterly barbaric, state-sponsored murder. Nothing less. I challenge anyone to see films like "Dead Man Walking" or watch the excellent BBC documentary "14 days in May" (and many similar documentaries and films based on real events) and not be completely repulsed by the idea of the death penalty

"14 days in May" (made in the mid 90s - can't find a link unfortunately) followed the last 14 days of Edward Earl Johnson until his execution. The documentary is led by Clive Stafford-Smith, the English lawyer who basically works for peanuts and has dedicated his life to defending death row inmates in the US. Edward Earl Johnson was 18 when he was found guilty of killing a police officer and attempted rape. This was despite not matching a description of the man given by the rape victim. Johnson had given a confession after, he alleged, being beaten and threatened by 2 policemen. He subsequently retracted the confession and continued to protest his innocence until his death 8 years later.

He was subsequently proved innocent.

Now, quite apart from the repulsiveness of the death penalty there are other, less emotional, reasons why I'm against it. The most obvious of these is that even the best justice system in the world will never work 100% and innocent people will get convicted. Even if I agreed with the death penalty in principle, I couldn't justify the death of even a single innocent person and for that reason alone could not support it.

The death penalty is also frequently touted by supporters of it as a deterrent. Even if it were a successful deterrent I would still be against it but there isn't a shred of evidence anywhere that it is an effective deterrent. In fact, in all the US states that have re-instated the death penalty since 1976 (when it was legalised again by the federal government) the murder rate has either increased or remained the same whereas in some other states that don't have the death penalty it has gone down. The fact is, murderers don't think about the consequences of their actions and don't think they're going to get caught so no punishment, even death, is going to deter them.

My views on crime and punishment are, shall we say, not mainstream Why do people support the death penalty, or imprisonment, or any kind of punishment? Is it for "justice" (whatever that is) - or is it more about revenge? The families of victims who witness the execution of the murderer in question or hang around outside the jail with "frying tonight" banners etc. (completely sick IMO) suggest that in the US at least it's all about revenge. Revenge is the worst kind of reaction to a crime and the recepie for a violent and destructive society. What will the execution of the man who murdered your daughter bring you? Happiness? Pleasure? What? IMO it will bring nothing at all.

My view is that a justice system should endeavour to do 2 things:
1) to prevent criminals from re-offending and if possible prevent crime alltogether.
2) to instill a sense of "karma" in that if you harm soceity in some way you have to repay that debt somehow.

Now clearly, a criminal who is in prison for life is not going to re-offend but I believe that "removal from soceity" is the worst possible option and one that should only be considered if there really is no hope of rehabilitation. It's so much better if criminals can be re-integrated into soceity and play a useful role in it.

IMO people's desire for revenge (what the tabloids would call "justice") does not enter into the equation. Revenge will eat them up from inside. They would be far far better of trying to find forgiveness.

So, how do you "repay your debt to soceity"? Well, not locked up in a cell as far as I'm concerned? What debt are they repaying there? All they learn is how to become better criminals when they get out and soceity is actually paying for them to be there! I don't have answers for this one but there are certainly some much more creative "punishments" starting to be used in various countries which not only are a benefit to soceity but also are far more effective at rehabilitation and preventing re-offending.

Right - I've gone on for far too long now so I'll shut up :MILD:

Michael.

 

[cookiemonster]

Revenge is the worst kind of reaction to a crime and the recepie for a violent and destructive society. What will the execution of the man who murdered your daughter bring you? Happiness? Pleasure? What? IMO it will bring nothing at all.

IMO people's desire for revenge (what the tabloids would call "justice") does not enter into the equation. Revenge will eat them up from inside. They would be far far better of trying to find forgiveness.

Is revenge an emotion which does not figure in the psyche of some individuals or is it merely 'curbed' through reasoning in these instances. If the latter, there is potentially always the risk that if you are victim or witness to a serious crime in the heat of the moment, emotion will dominate you more vigorously than reason, and revenge will trigger violent acts. Similarly, the aftermath of a serious crime, can send ripples through the neural highways and biways for many a moon, and pangs of vengeance could well do more than simmer, if the lid of reason falters under the strain of boiling emotions.

.....................................................................................................


'Hardening of the attitudes: Americans' Views on the Death Penalty' (Phoebe C.Ellsworth/Samuel R.Gross):

"If there is any one emotion that mediates between crime and support for the death penalty, it is probably frustration rather than fear. Year after year we live with high crime rates, we see graphic coverage of violence, we hear politicians promise to win the war against violence, against gangs, against drugs, against crime - but nothing changes. It is not hard to understand why many people support capital punishment even though they believe it does not deter crime and is not fair. The death penalty is concrete, it is forceful, and it is final (which nothing else seems to be); it is something, and being for it means that you insist that something be done."

......................................................................................................

Is it Morgan Freeman at the end of 'Seven' who quotes Ernest Hemmingway, when he says 'The world is a beautiful place, and worth fighting for' - 'I agree with the second part' - something like that.................


Currently, there are less Brads than Morgans in this fine audio appreciative piece of the 'virtual' universe puzzle, which i am led to believe, is also expanding.........

 

[michaelab]

Something I forgot to add is that the death penalty is an incredibly violent act and necessarily increases the level of violence in society, something which, as a pacifist I am obviously completely against.

I find it incredible, contradictory and hypocritical that a developed and civilised Western nation like the USA (some people would dispute "civilised ) has the death penalty. I know it's not always the case in practise (particularly if you're black) but in the US, criminals are treated fairly, can't be tortured, can't be beaten up and are generally treated with the respect they deserve as fellow humans, no matter how heinous their crimes; yet, some of them, the state still allows to be brutally murdered - the structure and "normality" of the proceedings just make it even more horrible and only highlight the contradictions. When you see films about the detail of death row and executions in the US they are made all the more abhorrent because of the attempts to sanitise and make the death penalty somehow "humane". It's simply grotesque. It just emphasises the point that the death penalty has no place in a civilised society.

At least the summary execution by firing squad after an unfair (or non-existent) trial that you get in many developing countries more or less goes with the territory.

Michael.

 

[cookiemonster]

I find it incredible, contradictory and hypocritical

Words which aptly describe so much human practice and thinking, regardless of history or geography.

Ironically, a remorseless and ardent killer is exempt from such a prognosis........

 

[domfjbrown]

...and here's another angle - how many people pre-meditate heinous crimes specifically TO be killed - kind of like a proxy suicide? I mean, let's face it, death has got to be better than having yourself porked in a very uncomfortable place every time you take a shower for the rest of your life etc etc, a bit like that guy in Minority Report who tries to get John to shoot him (and dies anyway)...

I guess, even though I can be for it (rape and murder deserve a real punishment - so that's no reading, TV etc and solitary if you ask me), there is no excuse. If it was my job, I'd do it - but the emotional detachment must be so difficult. Look at that psycho in The Green Mile - now you could be him once you get a taste for blood (or burning brain matter in his case- ugh!).

You do have to ask though - is one innocent life lost for the good of the majority a risk you're willing to take? Well for scum like Mira Hyndley (sp?) I think a quick snap followed by dumping the body into Drax (or any other) coal-fired power station might put a bit of good back into the community...

 

[space cadet]

Sick and wrong, let's move on

 

[cookiemonster]

dumping the body into Drax (or any other) coal-fired power station might put a bit of good back into the community...

Dom, how does it put good back into the community?

Sick and wrong, let's move on

Sick and wrong, lets not talk about it?

Sick and wrong, hope somebody does something about it?

Sick and wrong, i am doing something about it?

?

 

[space cadet]

Sick and wrong, we should all move on from barbaric old traditions and behave like the intelligent beings we perceive ourselves as.

You married yet cookie?

 

[cookiemonster]

3 weeks mate. Miss monster is getting progressively more tetchy, families are forging spears and various armaments, and the bank manager is treating himself to some new golf clubs. Usual stuff.

we should

Apologies for my pedantic tendencies, but is it generally viewed that we should change ourselves to improve the world, and hope that others follow suit, or that the hands of our fellows should be forced to achieve what WE perceive to be enlightened ends. Or are we all too jaded/shackled to concern ourselves with the mire of the hen pen at large, and instead concentrate on our own eggs.

 

[space cadet]

Fist of all I think one must be true to oneself, ie if you really can't stomach watching a cow being butchered, don't eat meat. If you don't have a problem with it, enjoy your burgers. (I myself do not eat meat, but have never ever preached to anybody that they shoud (there's that word again) not).
Most people hardly seem to cope with looking after their own eggs, nevermind taking on the rest of the shit that's happening, so sometimes it's best to leave other battles for other people with more time/resources.

Best of luck with the wedding... sounds like you're gonna have lots of fun!
Do you ever use other things as currency in your head when you spend a lot of money? For instance I've just been on holiday with the family, and for the money it cost I could've had superb Michell TT with all the trimmings or 100s of records...
There's still time to cancel

 

[wadia-miester]

CM, I see the BFG is going well I could interject at this point, on wasting scum, 45 hollow point threw the temple, clean exit wound little mess, no more paying out captivity, stop more innocents being 'abused/touched/killed/maimed, victims not worried about weather justice is served or not. easy simple.... or is it?.
Have we/anyone the right to take life? what ever the circumstances?, and as has been pointed out, what happens if there is a miscarridage of justice, resurrection is a long way off I feel !, plus does that lower us to Their level?.
We like to feel ourselves an 'Enlightened people' , humm... with all the misery going on in the world, civil war/fammine/dictators/crime/Drugs, long lists, how can we address them all?, will/can it over spill to all countries?
Death..... a means to an end, or just the beginning of a new adventure :MILD:
I mean if we are so civilised, then why on Pink fish at the moment, are the bleeting about rudeness/up in arms over and 'acting comment' it beggars belief, low life scum is peddling drugs and pimping, and all there worried about is Oh you hurt Paul Darwin feelings...really puts people into prespective .
This is a biggy, and requires serious debate for sure, I rarely come out of my 'own universe' but on this occation it warrents it.
The problem is, EYE for an EYE etc, a postive and negitive, universe is based on equilibrum, balances, ticks and cross, so most decent normal folk use this principle as a 'yard stick' Ie 'What goes up, must come down'
Thing is, is we do terminate them, that gives us the same feeling as it gave them, while they were doing the deed that got them there in the first place (maybe)
We thing nothing of swotting a fly/wasp or stepping on an ant, so killing another human being is that the same all those things are living .
Moral/legal/ concience issuses can you/could you cope? Tone

 

[michaelab]

Forcing people to follow your way is never a good idea and usually doesn't work in the long term either. I believe they call it dictatorship

The aim I think is to try and educate people and try and convince them of your views through reasoned argument. I think that education is the key here.

A witty phrase I've often uttered myself (and I don't know where I first heard it) is: "the trouble with democracy is that 'the people' don't know what's best for them" (and 'we', the leaders/elite, by implication, do). The basis of elitism but much as I'm against elitism I often find myself reluctantly thinking there's a lot of truth in the statement

It's my view that the majority of the population are not educated enough about current affairs and don't take a strong enough interest in the issues facing the government to be able to make a reasoned and educated choice at the polling booth. Hence we end up with people voting based on emotions and whether they like the personality of a candidate and, most obviously, which party they think is going to leave them with the most cash in the bank at the end of each month

Democracy cannot work as intended if "the people" aren't educated and don't know what they're voting for. Even worse is the total detachment from the system and not voting at all which is getting worse in the UK and is so bad in the US that I no longer regard the US as a democracy When the president of the country gets in when less than 25% of the population voted for him (he got less than 50% of the vote and the turnout was about 50%) and then only because friends and cronies in the Florida legislature and the Supreme Court made sure of it it surely is a mockery of the term democracy - not to mention the subtle and not so subtle ways in which swathes of people (mostly black people) are being systematically disenfranchised.

Compulsory voting as in Australia is also not really a solution unless you are allowed to cast a "null" vote because otherwise you'd get the non-voters skewing the results by ticking any old box.

IMO, in a democracy you have a duty to the state to learn about the issues and a duty to vote and engage in the system. If you just sit back and say "none of the parties do anything for me" and don't vote then you are actively allowing democracy to fail and you certainly can't complain about the outcome. Witness the last general election in France where voter apathy led to the prospect of a fascist government - only with that kind of wake up call did the people react and make damn sure the unthinkable didn't happen.

Sorry, I've drifted off but it's related. I think that if you are against the death penalty and don't do anything about it then you are "part of the problem and not part of the solution". I include myself in that group and know that I really should do more than give a load of money to Amnesty each year. I make no excuses, it's the typical guilt of a champagne socialist :SWMBO:

Michael.

 

[julian2002]

couple of points here.... just by living your normal life in the western developed world you are killing people in thirdworld countries. the lifestyle you have promotes slavery, dictatorships, famine and starvation and was built on the back of robbery, slavery, dictatorships etc. in the past. however the closest we come to doing anything about it are a few pathetic fundraisers like live aid and comic relief. i see no 'western' gorornment doing anything to redress this fact.

Forcing people to follow your way is never a good idea and usually doesn't work in the long term either.

every government forces you to do things their way. from paying taxes, to refusing certain parts of the population basic human rights based on arbitrary criteria such as their country of birth, sexual preference, gender, age, etc. it's called the law. without it we have anarchy which i used to think was a pretty cool thing but then i grew up and realised that man is at heart and animal and without some structure to his everyday life will revert to being one very quickly.

for myself perhaps the most focussing event in my life was the birth of my child. i would go to any lengths to make sure they are safe, cared for, fed, clothed and happy. to go to extremes here if that meant blowing the head off of an intruder in my home who intended harming them or killing and cooking an animal to eat if they were hungry and nothing else was available. i'd do it in a heartbeat and never look back. however i'd much rather work hard, and earn the money and pay the taxes so that the law prevented me from having to protect my home in that manner and allowed me to buy food from tescos.

back to the point. the death penalty should be the ultimate 'punishment' only used when there is no possibility of an individual being able to be integrated back into society and all that implies. as i've said before if they or their families could support them in indefinite imprisonment or there was some form of demolition man style cryo prison option then that would be the better way but unfortunately these are not that possible in todays political or technological climate.

cheers

julian

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
States have no moral right to take lives, and the judicial system makes mistakes. Therefore, regardless of the severity of a crime, I'm against capital punishment.

The tabloid press's ranting about the awfulness of particular crimes makes not one iota of difference to the principles at stake IMO.

-- Ian

I'll second that sentiment.

On top of which I'll add... IMHO the French had the right idea with Devils Island. IF some people persist in not abiding by the rules that society has decided it wants to live by then expell them from that society.. make them live in the sewer pit that they wish to live in.. with only like minded people to live with.

To sum up:

All people that use violence as a means to an end.. at whatever level of severity from bullying to murder and whom refuse to live by the rules, should be put on a desert island in the middle of the pacific and left to fend for themselves. It would cost the tax payer a lot less, society would be protected from them and they get to live the life of their choice.. so everyone is happy.

GTM

 

[space cadet]

...oooor re-open the british mines as labour-camps. Wales could be the new Siberia!
...oooor castrate all rapists!
....oooor make all criminals participate in medical experiments!

 

[cookiemonster]

should be put on a desert island in the middle of the pacific and left to fend for themselves

Sounds like bliss

Nice little hut and some pot plants ala Papillon, watching the waves crash in, and the sun rise. :MILD:

society would be protected from them

The ostracised would be protected from society

 

[Hex Spurt]

Kill 'em all !!!

Folk who drive in the middle lane holding everyone else up when the left lane is clear. :grrr:

People who "forget" where the fog light switch is :bub:

Lazy b'stards that park in Disabled/Mother & Baby spaces without just cause. :inferno:

Litter Louts :chainsaw:

Careless dog-owners for letting their pets foul playing fields and footpaths :chop:

Those nerds who can't park a car properly, scuff your bumpers then drive off :gatling:

The same nerds who can't get in or out of their cars without bashing your car doors as well. :micro:

Those macho heros that prove their virility by booting in bus shelters and telephone boxes :SWMBO:

The dirty swine that piss all over the seats of public lavs :spank:

Arrrgghhh!!! Kill 'em. Kill 'em all !!!


Get this sorted an you won't have to worry about crime.