thoughts and views on PMC OB1's

[Robbo]

Dont worry, I wont let my judgement be clouded by other peoples views.

 

[merlin]

With a passive set-up, the drivers cannot be in phase at X-over points. I use the actives, as you know.

Er let's all re-read it shall we James

What's up? Worried the Tact will expose more than you would like? James, we would not argue if you stuck to posting correct statements. You can hardly blame me for correcting you

 

[analoguekid]

I'm sick & tired of arguing with you, Merlin. Your invitation to my place is withdrawn. Frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Told you it would never happen.

James I originally kept my comments to myself out of politeness, I am a salesman afterall, and very practised when it comes to dealing with people face to face, your system is fine, but it didn't live up to your hype, and I have heard many others I prefer, I also have heard many others I don't.

And here endeth the argument as far as I'm concerned. Cause I reckon others are getting a bit sick of it.

 

[Robbo]

I'm sick & tired of arguing with you, Merlin. Your invitation to my place is withdrawn. Frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Oh well. thats the end of that then.

 

[analoguekid]

If James won't play then you can still come and visit me, I'm sure you could also arrange to meet Wolfie and Mr Alves, we're not that far apart in Scotland you know

 

[wadia-miester]

Well, never mind you guys can go a listen to Alex's totally crap system instead, save money on flights/petrol and get a better sound, a Win<>Win situation to me chap.
Now some simple Equations relating to sound quality

Where GS=Great Sound:CPS=Careful Product Selection:COE=Cost of Equipment:TSSU=Time spent setting up
Great sound is measured is Factors, so an ideal sound would be factor of 1 (Thereoretical Maximum), most quality systems measure around .78-.84 on the GS Scale, with the odd exceptional one reaching .88% on the first principled formulea

GS=CPSXTSSU/COE which can be transposed as TSSU/CPSXCOE giving us GS
now let us add a few more variables into the eqaution.
There is an inverse theorum too the AGS (Alledged Great Sound)

Large stand mounted monitor 'type speakers' ATCBS1
Ferrous style equipment supports MANA (further levels can be simpley treated as +1/2/3 etc)
Admirable devotion to the cause. BrainWash (again according to the level of absolution 1/2/3 etc)
Lack of common sense or reasoning due to BrainWash=Twat (again 1/2/3 etc)
Ringer factor. Ability to use the secared hammer=BellEndBasher (BEB)
Self deluding Factor=Muppet

So let us use the above example to apply the equation to a 'Known system'

So
ATCBSxMANA11
GS = ------------------ = BEBxMuppet :-
BrainWash13xTwat

gives us a GS of .2 thus inverted gives a final answer of AGS of Factor 1 a prefect score for the said system.
You see for once theory does match real world practices.

 

[The Devil]

Whatever, guys. The truth is that most people are completely & utterly blown away, except for a few of you experts who see straight through it. No bass, or is it too much? Depends on the expert.

Robbo, you are still welcome, you seem like a reasonable person. I really don't think that Merlin is the sort of person who I'd get on with particularly well.

 

[analoguekid]

I'm no expert James don't think I ever said that I was. You don't have to be an expert to know waht you like.

 

[merlin]

And so yet again the mighty Bub changes direction when proved wrong and pretends he isn't! Fabulous (if rather obvious).

I rather doubt we'd get on James to be honest. I call a spade a spade - don't care if it upsets people.

Still I guess we will only be able to guestimate just how inaccurate your setup (with HF sources 3ft or more above ear level) really is in future debates without proving it.

I suspect that's the real issue here though folks. Just imagine if the internet's greatest purveyor of the truth were proven to have been mistaken all these years. Could he stand it? The evidence suggests not sadly.

 

[Robbo]

If James won't play then you can still come and visit me

Robbo, you are still welcome

Thanks for the offers guys. but quite frankly, with the antics that have been going on over the last few weeks I think the pair of you are slightly unhinged. It must be the water in the Glasgow area or something.

As a result, I think I will save my hard earned cash on air fares and decline your kind offers of a listen, probably using the money saved for something more worthwhile like buying more music.

Regards, Robbo.

BTW James, you have made a mistake in your judgement of Merlin, he is a rather decent chap (despite all the forum bluster), and very good company. Your loss I am afraid.

 

[The Devil]

I rather doubt we'd get on James to be honest.

We agree about something at last.

...guestimate just how inaccurate your setup (with HF sources 3ft or more above ear level) really is in future debates without proving it.

Guestimate away: you'll never know.

...yet again the mighty Bub changes direction when proved wrong

Your lack of comprehension is the issue.

 

[analoguekid]

BTW James, you have made a mistake in your judgement of Merlin, he is a rather decent chap (despite all the forum bluster), and very good company. Your loss I am afraid.

The sad thing Robbo, is James is a decent chap too, when he comes down off his arrogant high horse, they'd prolly get along quite well, still maybe one day, you never know.

 

[merlin]

My final words on the issue. James stated

With a passive set-up, the drivers cannot be in phase at X-over points.

Now check out the white paper here

Typical second order systems (two-way) wire the tweeter out of phase with the woofer. Our second order network is in itself a unique example of engineering due to the fact that both the woofer and tweeter work in electrical phase with each other. This was accomplished through computer development of the enclosure relative to the specific needs of each driver and the separating network. Our crossover works like a textbook example without the usual glitches producing super flat response and phase at the crossover point of 2,150Hz.

So James' statement is wrong - although of course he can never be seen to admit to such a state of affairs. I'd suggest we leave it there.

 

[The Devil]

Merlin Music Systems inc. (who they?) need to take up the argument with ATC.

And if that's not an 'advertorial', I'm not sure what is!

 

[Paul Ranson]

Merlin's Merlin brochure says nothing about whether the drivers are actually in phase through the crossover region, just that they are wired in phase. It generally reads as the hifi bollocks it is.

The critical bit of the ATC document promoting actives is 'Combine this with the inclusion of a variable all-pass filter at each crossover point to correct the phase response of the drive units through the crossover regions'. This you cannot do reasonably with a passive.

Paul

 

[The Devil]

Thank-you Paul.

One thing that I find extremely irritating is to be told (arrogantly) that I am wrong, when I am in fact right.

 

[analoguekid]

Thank-you Paul.

One thing that I find extremely irritating is to be told (arrogantly) that I am wrong, when I am in fact right.

:club:

 

[merlin]

Merlin's Merlin brochure says nothing about whether the drivers are actually in phase through the crossover region, just that they are wired in phase. Paul

So Paul, given that the units are wired in phase with each other, and that no dip is observed anywhere near the crossover region, would it not be safe to accept that the properly designed crossover has avoided electrical phase shifts and that the units are indeed operating in phase with each other?

If not, could you shed some more light on the subject. Are you saying that it is impossible to design a phase coherent crossover regardless of the slope employed and the orietation of the drive units?

And no James, you are not correct (even if you had had the gumption to have thought it all up for yourself

 

[The Devil]

Spot the difference!

"even if you had had the gumption to have thought it all up for yourself "

What's that supposed to mean?

...the typical 2nd order passive crossover does indeed use the drive units out of phase with each other...

Typical second order systems (two-way) wire the tweeter out of phase with the woofer.

All you have done is very slightly re-word the quote from MMS inc's marketing puff. Is that what's known as "gumption" in your view?

I've never heard of MMS inc, btw. Who TF are they?

 

[merlin]

I've never heard of MMS inc, btw. Who TF are they?

They make highly respected loudspeakers James. Why not visit their website?

As for the rest of your comment, well it's a case of mistakenly judging others by your own standards I suspect.

Tell me, do you suffer depression and seek solace in virtual arguments?