Tony Blairs words on society

[auric]

Has all that much changed since 1987?

Someone I am sure will soon quote from Mrs T so I thought I'd put the link on the record so that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

Sounds a bit TB to me.

 

[ats]

Watched one of those parenting programs on Channel 4 I think during the week. The family had 5 or 6 boys and one of them would regularly punch & kick his step dad. In one scene the boy said 'you can't touch me I'll have you arrested'. It's no wonder discipline in schools is going pear shaped, kids nowadays know they can get away with bad behaviour.

 

[I-S]

Phill - excellent post.

I think it's because of the environment I was raised in. My parents would punish me if I did things wrong (loss of pocket money, occasional smack, sent to room, etc) so that I learned consequences of my actions. Was also taught a great deal of respect for people, property, etc. They've always been supportive and encouraging but unafraid to tell me where the boundaries are, and they've always taken an interest in me rather than leave me in front of a television and ignore me.

 

[SCIDB]

Hi

Interesting thread. Here are some of my thoughts on some of the points.

My view is that it all comes from the way you're brought up (not controversial I know). People will go out and make a nuisance of themselves at some point in their lives, I know good folk who have snapped off car aerials and been in fights, standard Saturday night British behaviour, but those who have been brought up properly will usually get back into line at some point. Its those that have been badly brought up that are lost causes unless they discover some greater meaning and sort themslevs out but even this requires some spark of intelligence lacking if you're badly brought up and never went to school.

Its not bleedin parenting, its society.

I do believe some of the problems are due to how people are brought up and some are due to society. A number of problems have always be there. There has always been elements of loutish behaviour. There has always been 'horrible' crimes etc. Today, the slightest thing can get reported. Sometimes it sounds like it's happening on every street corner.

The thing is that some of our problems are caused by people who should know better. In a number of cases these people don't get caught.

its the natural evolution of this society with haves and have nots, rich and poor, declines in morals, me culture, celebrity culture, media culture, shit on tv,shit people running the tv, do gooders, illegal immigrants, envy, loss of communities,....I don't know the bleedin neighbours anymore 2 houses down.

Society of this country has always been changing. There has alwys been rich and poor, morals have always changed, culture has always changed, communities have always changed. The country is an island and has always had migrants coming here. There has always been envy.

As for not knowing your neighbours, who's faults that? Also not everyone will get on with their neighbours for one reason or another. This has always been the case.

too many things too little time to do them,

What wrong with that? If you want to do more things plan your life better. There are only so many hours in the day.

too many people in the uk, overcrowding,

A lot of people have come here to work and do work. Both legally and illegally. There is a lot of work to be done in this country. Birth rate is falling People are living longer. One problem we do have is that alot people live and work in certain areas. London is crowded and some of the organisations don't need to be down there. They could spread around the country. The demand for london and the home counties has been huge.

i live in a city of over 500,000 people. It's doesn't seem overcrowded to me.

advertising, marketing bullshit too high expectations,

This has again always happened. Too many people are taken in be things. Don't get taken in by it.

soaps on tv violence on tv and computer games.

If all you do is watch tv and computer games then you may have problems. we have always had people who have very little variety in life.

parenting is a natural thing, its not responsible alone, lack of parenting comes from lack of time due to too much to get done.

I do fully agree with this. Parents don't have a manual on parenting. People don't agree on many things. I do think parents need as much help as possible. There has always been parents who have had a lack of time but the kids have turned out well. There have been parents that have spent a lot of time with their kids and the kid have turn out to be nasty.

It's not the length of time but the quality of time. It's always down to the standards set.

america culture infringing, a lot of crap does come from california, real crap

US culture has had a lot of influence on british culture both good and bad. One good thing is the music. Without US music, popular British music would be nowhere.

Crap can come from anywhere.

How is Tony going to sort it out? I'm sure there must be a case for a nationwide, well funded, parenting skills program or some kind of instructional program like Supernanny. If Jamie Oliver can do it for school dinners surely someone can do it for parenting?

More help for our society is needed. I have watch a few programmes over the last week about parent/child issues. The advice offered improved situations. An expert had analysed the child problems and offered solutions. The hardest part was parents following the advice, which at times wasn't easy.

Its got to be better than introducing on the spot fines and banning hoodies in shopping centres!

Too right!

Tony have to do his part.............. but so do you and me.

This is so true. We need to set our standards high.

3) have free parenting classes. this must be passed once for each child you have. if you pass your child benefit for that child increases to twice what it is now. so if an existing single parent has 3 kids they have to pass the course 3 times to get the maximum level of child benefit - this is to drum it into the parent and for other reasons see below.

4) have different types of tuition according to the parents situation. i.e. a new borns parent will want a different course to a teenagers.

Parenting classes is something that can be looked at. Not sure what form they should take, but the idea is good.

5) TEACH PARENTING SKILLS IN SCHOOL AS A COMPULSORY LESSON.

Not so much parenting skills but life skills. This is something that can be (and has been) incorporated in schools but it needs to be done from when the child is born.

however a parent is ultimately responsible for what their child watches when at home and they are also the arbiter of what happens elsewhere too, many parents seem to have forgotten that or are too wishy washy to stand up to their kids and say NO.

This happens in all walks and all parts of society and needs to be looked at.


More on the other points later.


SCIDB

 

[SCIDB]

Hi

Here are some more thoughts before I go out and spin some tunes.

In many conversations I've had with people on this subject it does seem that there has been a marked shift.

For example, someone I know (in his 40s) said that if he had been out somewhere and had been caught misbehaving he'd have got a clip around the ear from the local bobby. When he got home, he'd get another one.

As someone who has turned 40, this has happened but usually in earlier times. But at the same time, when I was a kid, there were many people who would have a go at the police if this happen.

But this shows that there was wrong doing in the first place. They just had the misfortune of getting caught. Don't look at things through rose coloured specs. There were some nasty things done in the 70s and before.

These days if a kid got a clip around the ear from a policeman the parents would take the kid's side and say it was unprovoked and sue the police.

One reason for this is the rise of the bad coppers and bad policing. We have seen a lot of miscarriages of justices for many reasons. This has lead to the mistrust of the police. Police need to be accountable.

So, it's about trust. The parents don't trust the police or teachers to make appropriate judgements on behaviour nor to administer corporal punishment. The police and teachers don't trust the parents to trust their judgement and consequently become powerless due to the threat of litigation.

This is true. People are wary due to bad teaching, policing and parenting etc.

It does seem that some (certainly not all) parents are unwilling to appropriately discipline their children. The teachers can't discipline those children because those parents who won't discipline their own children are most likely to sue. Thus those children don't receive any discipline and can (on sad occasions literally) get away with murder.

It's a vicious circle, but how did it start? Where has that lack of trust come from?

Only part of the problem Isaac. Some kids do get discipline and punishment but it's not consistant. Some kids act like angels at home but are nasty at school. It is something that has been going for some time. Rules and guidelines need to be set.

Society has become very significantly more secular in the same time frame. The real change is in cynicism though. People no longer take things at face value. 150 years ago if you saw something it was through your own eyes and so you believed it. Now people watch films, soap operas, play computer games, have access to unlimited uncensored material on any subject via the internet. Consequently if you see someone killed in a film it's nothing special. Show that to someone who's never seen a television and they'll react differently.

Equally, we're better informed now than ever. We have access to news in detail from any part of the world. We read cases of murder, sexual abuse, assault, etc and know it's all around. So we don't trust anyone not to do that to us or to children.

The increase in getting information 'as it happens' has lead to this mistrust. The downside iis that a lot of info can be lies, half truths, hearsay and scaremonging. It can play on peoples hopes and fears.

more later, the decks are calling.

SCIDB

 

[GAZZ]

Likewise I wasn't saying his salary/reward was in proportion (clearly its excessive) although I do think its more proporionate than what people who have no intentions of working get. I'm not talking people who are ill or looking for work but the waste of life type that collect their benefits and go to the off license with it, they should be made to do something menial for it like shopping for elderly people. The only reward for being lazy should be an empty stomach not a house, tv and beer.

Can you imagine the crime if you stopped benifits just look a the US. I do unpaid work and its not the uneducated that is needed. HArd work doesn't always pay there are millions of people working for minimum wage and have to do long hours.

 

[mick parry]

Chaps

Punishing some peasant with a fine, ASBO, probation, short prison sentence etc is about as effective as a chocolate teapot.

The only answer is to make the punishment short, sharp and totally terrifying.

The only answer is the birch. 20 good strokes for the first offence. Make it 50 for the second. I doubt if you will ever reach a third offence.

Regards

Mick

 

[greg]

Mick brutality just breeds and condones brutality. For some it would break them, for others it would just harden them.

In terms of sentencing - it should reflect society's view of the crime and should demonstrate fairness. I'm not advocating liberalism - eg. I agree with the idea of a 5 year minimum term for those in posession of a gun, but Societies like the US which brutalise those who break the law create an ongoing problem for themselves.

Your goal of a short sharp solution to a complex problem is simplistic and knee-jerk I'm afraid.

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

hiya Dean, just to respond to a couple of your points.

hell, I know we need migrant workers, there are a lot of jobs to be done, menial jobs that I wouldn't want to do.

But we have 4 times the population density of France, we are overcroded and in biological systems, overcrowding leads to fights.

I got used to it, but coming from a quiet area and going to London felt very uneasy due to the squash at first, I never really liked it, but I do like the life of cities.

You just need to look at the cars on the road and stress on services now, we are teetering on the brink.

But I don't want to turn this into a discussion on immigration, it gets nowhere.

My points above are the diagnosis of why society is now the way it is, and there are undeniably many many more ways to spread your time, there are unequvocally too many things to do, and people complain about this all the time. Its no ones particular fault, but the natural state of play with technology et al. That's what I meant by societal evolution, the current state of play leading up to this time.

Envy and the gap between rich/poor is getting worse with the media celbrity culture thing, the beckham factor, true its always been there, but now is everywhere and obvious due to papers and media.

As to the neighbours, its as much there fault, I used to know everyone, now I never see them at all, they are not bothered. I always make eye contact, they don't even bother to recognise, I do my bit, they don't, that's them. some are friendly. This has changed in the last 10 yrs.

too many rights, too much leniency, I have some sympathy with mick's point of view, some. Everyone has an excuse for the crime, a defence, mitigation, perhaps all crime is excusable in that people do it cos they just can't help it..I dont' know.
kind regards.

 

[mick parry]

Greg

The Ilse of Man retained and practised the birch until the sixties.

It had a low rate of petty crime and I believe hardly any repeat offences ever occured. The thought of a second birching was too much, even for the most hardened thug.

I see nothing with trying a 3 year experiment as the current system is clearly not working.

Regards

Mick

 

[greg]

Mick, the social structure and fabric in the Isle of Man differs considerably from mainland Britain IMO. First question - has there been a significant change in crime rates/types since the birch was [rightly] abolished?

I believe the size and cohesion of society in that small island is probably largely to do with its low crime rates.

Secondly regardless whether the Isle of Man - famed for its forward thinking social policies like homosexuality being illegal - considers the birch an appropriate response to crime - I do not.

Brutality teaches the recipient that the society administering it actually condones it.

Stateside - the death penalty is the ultimate reason why the state should not be respected. To respond to a murder by murdering the murderer does nothing but make society feel better. It does not solve the problem it sets our to solve - that of preventing future murders. There is no evidence of which I am aware that supports its efficacy.

Birching criminals might make people like you (ie. who share your view on birching) feel better, but that is not a solution to a set of complex social problems which lead to crime and criminal mindedness.

 

[mick parry]

Greg

You said

"Brutality teaches the recipient that the society administering it actually condones it."

The birch is so bloody painful that it scares the yobs into not behaving badly.

The is what it is all about.

Trendy liberals like you end up breeding little thugs.

Regards

Mick

 

[greg]

You said "Trendy liberals like you end up breeding little yobs".

Amusing that you conclude a person who doesnt believe in the Birch is a trendy liberal and really bizarre that you both characterise me as that but then conclude "I will end up breeding little yobs".

I endured the cane at school on three occasions and it taught me nothing except my school and its opinions on discipline were flawed.

With regards to our children, I strongly believe in discipline but parental discipline not bullying. You clearly believe in raising quiet but unhappy, bullied children?

 

[I-S]

Mick - I think that's stepping a little too far over the line to personal insults. Please keep it civil.

 

[mick parry]

Greg

I worded that sentence badly, I was not commenting on your parenting skills and I apologise if you interpreted it that way.

What I meant and strongly believe is that a trendy liberal society tends to breed little thugs in the next generation.

Some yobs only respect force and the birch scares the living daylights out of them and as a result, old ladies don't get mugged etc.

Regards

Mick

 

[wadia-miester]

Respect and basic manners are long forgotten, question is how do we get them back?

 

[SCIDB]

Hi,

Back for more.

In addition to that though, there's the celebrity culture, as data was suggesting. Glossy magazines portray the beckhams as gods that everyone must aspire to be like.

The thing is, we have always had a celebrity culture. Throughout history, there has been people we have always looked up to. In the past, it was leaders and royalty. Nowadays it's celebrities. This is due to media coverage. These celebrities make better news stories

The only problem is that it requires money, and the people most attracted to that are typically in the lower social strata. It is difficult to move upwards,

One thing that attracts people to them is the fact that many have come from a lower social strata. It is easier to move up the social standing than ever before. Not everyone has or will do it but a fair few people have moved to become 'middle class' and upwards. You can do this by years of hard graft or by striking it lucky. The fact that people do get more money does attract a lot of interest. Both good and bad.

There's also the question of aspiration. What do people want to be? Show people pictures of a university professor, a doctor, Mother Teresa and david bloody beckham and ask which one they most want to be like. I think you know the answer. beckham is the most highly rewarded by a long way. Entertainment has its value but in my opinion he is the lowest contributor to humanity of those four.

What's wrong in aspiring to be a footballer? Football is the world's number one sport. It can be a thing that makes people forget their worries. It can offer escapism from everyday life. It is a big form of entertainment. As Human beings, we need to be entertained. It makes them feel better. This is not too say that people shouldn't aspire to the every positions that were mentioned. You need many things in life to help people to aspire to.

Its strange how society is turned on its head, the people that contribute least are the types that get the most, eg what does Beckham do? zip, gets a photo and gets a million, whilst getting flown to a location.
similar with entertainers and singers, what do they really contribute? 2 hour show if that.

Why do you think he contributes very little? He has made millions of people around the world very happy. He has made his employers (football clubs) loads of money. Hence his big saleries. He has made millions for various charities. He has paid a load in tax. etc.

A lot of entertainers do similar things. Don't underestimate the power of entertainment.

Ok, yes, beckham may be dedicated and hard working and perhaps I played that down unfairly. The same is true of many great sportsmen. And entertainers such as musicians and sportsmen deserve reward for dedication just as we all do.

David Beckham gets paid excellent money because people & organisations are prepared to pay him good money. The same with a number of other sportsmen and women. It all boils down to the deal you can get from your employers.

However, the reward seems utterly disproportionate. People complain about headmasters at troubled schools being offered £100k. I say they're underpaid at that.

I agree with that. Also the pay the teachers more who work in those schools. But at the LEAs will offer a salary and it's up to the applicants to say yes or no to it or haggle a better deal.

a lot of people who work are dedicated and put in as much, I am not denying sports dedication, only the rewards.why should being a 'public' thing mean you are recognised more, isn't a student as good as an athlete in that both 'train' every day, a worker on a studycourse?

Most students don't train like athletes. This is due to sacrifices made. A lot of athletes have to give up big chunks of their lives to get anywhere in their sport. You don't need to be as dedicated when you study.

You can get on by doing the bear minimum as a student and end up quite cosy. In sport you do generally need to be at the top of your game to get on. This is not be say that there are not many people who work hard as students. A number don't work hard all the time.

Beckham can only pass and cross, he isn't that good at anthing else.

It's more than most footballers can. He can do these to a very high standard. Very few players can do everything to world class standards. Football is a team game where you have a balance of players with different skills. Teams very much need players who can pass and cross. The standard of passing and crossing by British players can be very poor. When someone can do this to a high standard they become a commodity. Look at Wayne Rooney, look at Gazza, look at Chris Waddle, look at George Best etc.

Assuming everyone on this board is pretty much law abiding and considerate towards others, you have to ask yourself why have you turned out the way you are?

Parents, family, teachers, friends, who had the biggest impact on your opinion of right and wrong, and what stops you doing things that you think are wrong?

My parents and friends influenced me the most and likewise, the fear of disappointing them stopped me doing things wrong.

I agree with a lot of this. The downside is that we can't pick our families and we can make a pigs ear of picking our friends. Weak or poor friends and family could set you on the road to ruin. Strong parents and friends can lead to very good things. People being nice to each for one.

SCIDB

 

[SCIDB]

Hi Ian (data),

a few points to counter your points.

hell, I know we need migrant workers, there are a lot of jobs to be done, menial jobs that I wouldn't want to do.

A lot of migrants don't just do menial work. A number do important and qualified work. Also a large number of migrants are in fact British born people who have been away for over year and have migrated back.

But we have 4 times the population density of France, we are overcroded and in biological systems, overcrowding leads to fights.

You will find that most people live in only a small part of a country. Here in the UK about a quarter of the population live in or around London. The South East. Parts of this country are not very crowded at all. People choose to live in these areas, which can be crowded. This has mainly been because the work and commerce is in these places.

As for fighting, some people will always fight. In the past, the this country has been much less crowded and there has been many fights. Some were civil disturbances, some were civil wars. All for many different reasons.

You just need to look at the cars on the road and stress on services now, we are teetering on the brink.

A number of problems are due to bad planning on the transport inferstructure over the years. I don't think we are teetering on the brink just yet.

But I don't want to turn this into a discussion on immigration, it gets nowhere.

No it's not turning into a discussion on immigration but if you put down points people disagree with they may be challenged.

As to the neighbours, its as much there fault, I used to know everyone, now I never see them at all, they are not bothered. I always make eye contact, they don't even bother to recognise, I do my bit, they don't, that's them. some are friendly. This has changed in the last 10 yrs.

Have you asked yourself why you don't know your neighbour? Have you been round? Just because they don't come round doesn't mean they are bad neighbours. Have you been round? If it's just eye contact, I'm not surprised. How about inviting them round for a cup of tea or a plain 'good morning'. If they are not bothered, don't worry about it.

The thing is that not everyone has good neighbours. This has always been the case throughout the years. People don't get on for various reasons. This is nothing new.

too many rights, too much leniency, I have some sympathy with mick's point of view, some. Everyone has an excuse for the crime, a defence, mitigation, perhaps all crime is excusable in that people do it cos they just can't help it..I dont' know.
kind regards.

Too many rights etc can be a reaction for having few rights etc in the past. I generally don't see getting rid of rights as the way forward but I do agree with
the 'people need to take responsibility for their own actions' comment.


SCIDB

 

[greg]

Some yobs only respect force and the birch scares the living daylights out of them and as a result, old ladies don't get mugged etc.

I know plenty of men, people I grew up with, who have no respect for the criminal justice system because it appears to have no teeth. I guess it's possible some of them might respond differently to such measures, but I'm personally not convinced.

Most of them have either had significantly bad things happen to them in their personal lives for something like corporal punishment to have little meaning.
Examples include an alcoholic dad who regularly kicked the living sh*t out of him, a guy who lost his mum when he was a kid, a guy who was badly bullied for many years, a guy who grew up in a home where both parents were heavy drug users.

The above are not a list of excuses for some of the crimes they committed, just part explanations as to why most of them lack some sense of moral responsibility held by most people.

Othe chaps are a little *mental* and I really mean they are lacking something in their head - those guys dont really think through their actions in advance and any deterrent is unlikely to kick in during the "act" of whatever they end up doing. I wouldnt be surprised if they were starved of oxygen at birth - I would stake money that a brain scan would genuinely show up some defects.

On a wider level the word "respect" keeps cropping up. How do we get "yobs" for want of a better word to have more respect?

Well they do have it but what they have and seek is "respekt". Respekt for the heavy up the street who makes a good living out of selling rox, or the gang in the estate who take no shit and wear flicky threads. The dude with the trick Corsa or the "posse" with some shizzle, access to a recording studio and who are surrouded with fine hoes.

This type of person aqcuire an "ideology" from sources like The Godfather, Scarface, Mobb Deep, Sizzla, Snoop and Dre, the Grime sound of East End London, the "attitude" of Moss Side, Hackney, Knowle West, Chappeltown, Handsworth, Deptford, etc...

It's sad to say the least but respekt for authority is something that needs to be earned. Teachers are sad suckers with no power, the police are lacking resources, education is for chumps, aspirations are for fools. Poor quality policing, CJ system with little bite, poor housing solutions, little to do and few obvious opportunities make it easy for this respekt not to be extended to wider society.

They themselves are clearly chumps, they expect things for free and dont feel the desire to work for them, they aspire to a certain "lifestyle", but dont equate effort and self-organisation with acheiving this. Instead they believe connektions and contakts will help them get what they want without having to participate in society. Naturally being "backed-up" is essential and so the gun, the knife, the mate down the road who can turn up with some muscle when required.

Their attitude is often justified because their parents share the same view. They are people who never grew up, are possibly drug users and or unemployed, scamming, fighting, had a bad experience at school and support their kid's lack of respekt for teachers, had a bad experience with the police, etc. Their kids lack role models, good examples, alternative ways of looking at the world. The problem will continue generation after generation unless some contigeous and committed policy changes actually attack this attitide with metaphorical stick, yes, but carrot too.

If these chumps and those who aspire to be like them are to be drawn away from these patterns of thinking then we as a society need to establish frameworks of opportunity and enfranchisement which clearly make more sense to them than the petty, and low aspiring perspective they have at present. This sounds like a compromise, a soft touch, yet with our own children you dont get very far in influencing them if it's all "stick" and no carrot.

They might have dodgy values but they, like flowing water, are simply taking the path of least resistance. But add drugs into the equation and you have a real difficulty - certain drugs sap motivation, others reify the mind and the value system. The drugs are a big problem.

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

I bet Mick P would agree with this, this is sort of tongue in cheek, let all the drugs gangs shoot each other ,then there won't be drug violence as there's no-one left
you just have to look at the parents reactions to know this is wrong tho'