Tony Blairs words on society

[domfjbrown]

dom, youv'e used my name with with the thrird quote but its not mine, please amend. ta

BTW love to have a chat over a few beer with you on this.

I do agree there should be a welfare system in place to look after the elderly who have put much into the system, the dissabled, and the between jobs (max 1yr).

Sorry <big blush> - amended now! Got a bit overheated too - I'm not an unhinged woman-hating psycho - honest! Just wish my mum had thought a bit, back in 1974 (although without the eyesight thing, I'd not have all the really decent mates I have now, so be careful what you wish for Dom ).

I think a year's dole is fair - if you can't find a job in a year as a stopgap, something VERY wrong is up.

As for the breeding/Islam thing - is that for real? Would explain a lot. I *do* feel a "integration" course that ensures you're here to respect the UK and not take the mickey should be a formal part of the process for being allowed in. There's no racism or shame in expecting people to make an effort to respect your cultures and values in return for your generously letting them in to get on their feet, is there? After all, the UK allowed me in (from Cornwall - he he!).

 

[Heavymental]

I *do* feel a "integration" course that ensures you're here to respect the UK and not take the mickey should be a formal part of the process for being allowed in. There's no racism or shame in expecting people to make an effort to respect your cultures and values in return for your generously letting them in to get on their feet, is there?

What cultures and values are they then Dom? Do you think we need a course to help people know the etiquette of getting pissed and fighting?
I think we ought to be schooled in understanding different cultures...there seems to be alot we could learn from the family values and unity seen in Muslim communities.

And god this thread is starting to look like the Daily Mails letters page. I think deep down we all know handing out 6 of the best will not cure our countries ills even if it is a tempting thought when you hear a bottle being smashed outside your house.

Think we should all go and join Michael in Portugal...about half less densely populated than the UK, sure this is the root of half the problems.

 

[domfjbrown]

What cultures and values are they then Dom? Do you think we need a course to help people know the etiquette of getting pissed and fighting?

Think we should all go and join Michael in Portugal...about half less densely populated than the UK, sure this is the root of half the problems.

Overpopulation sounds cool... (eh? EDIT to say what I mean! = talk about brainflip...) PORTUGAL sounds cool - overpopulation is probably the BIGGEST root of the UK's problem - particularly in the South East (though the South West is catching up fast).

I'm not saying that the "classic" British cultures of late (beering and fighting) are good ones to foist on people coming in, but speaking English, being courteous, and understanding our laws should be part of it. I mean, you hear of these "honour killings", arranged marriages etc, and under OUR rules, none of that kind of stuff is acceptable.

Also, it'd be nice to go into a shop and buy something without the foreign owner yabbering away in ummagumma on the phone while basically ignoring you as you deign to attempt to buy your product. It's all well and good (well, actually it's NOT but...) doing that to someone who can see the price on the till, but I can't. If you are paying their wages and using their shop, the least they can do is acknowledge you exist.

It's the same in supermarkets or on the phone - you might as well be talking sprongloueeushk the way many people in these roles react when you speak English to them. I'm sorry, but in the UK we speak English. Not exactly hard to grasp. If I was forced to relocate abroad *I'd* make the effort to learn their language, so why do I get made to feel racist thinking someone coming here should do the same???

NOTE - I *do* respect foreign shopkeepers - pretty well ALL of them (when they're NOT on the phone!!!) are very hard working, and put the British slobs to shame wrt working hours, etc. Look at some of the hours takeaway owners, for example, have to work. Then get a true Brit to work those hours. Ha ha ha. SO of course foreigners have a very real needed place here.

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

agreed, I respect foreign workers too, but I was on the phone the other day to a uk speaker company and there was a nice foreign girl there, she couldn't really understand me and I couldn't understand her, if companies employ foreigners to take calls from english, at least they should understand and be understood.
I consider going abroad and trying to talk their language very important. I find it disrespecful to our culture, and yes we have one, we are not anonymous or simply hotch potch, we are major majority traditional english, for people to come here and not make an effort.

 

[greg]

I'd add that anyone who is not a parent is not really in any position to comment on those of us who are.

Joe - I presume you're not referring to me?

In my personal opinion children under five need more contact with at least one parent than just mornings and evenings. Again IMO a child under five being in a nursery from before 9am and until 6pm every day is not getting a fair deal. No matter how good a nursery is. In my experience - even early primary school age kids struggle being in an establishment beyond 3pm.

...but if I thought for a minute he'd be better off at home with me I'd give up work immediately as we don't need two incomes. As it is, I'm able to work (and stay sane)...

It's easy to say this but have you really considered it? Would you really give your job up if you thought it was best for your child?

If you dont need two incomes how can you conclude your child is better off in a nursery full time than at the most part time?

Their early years disappear in the blink of an eye and them having a "comfortable" lifestyle is no relacement for time with Mum and/or Dad.

 

[Joe]

Joe - I presume you're not referring to me?

In my personal opinion children under five need more contact with at least one parent than just mornings and evenings. Again IMO a child under five being in a nursery from before 9am and until 6pm every day is not getting a fair deal. No matter how good a nursery is. In my experience - even early primary school age kids struggle being in an establishment beyond 3pm.

It's easy to say this but have you really considered it? Would you really give your job up if you thought it was best for your child?

If you dont need two incomes how can you conclude your child is better off in a nursery full time than at the most part time?

Their early years disappear in the blink of an eye and them having a "comfortable" lifestyle is no relacement for time with Mum and/or Dad.

Greg, no, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. Having 'been there' raising two children, and having seen my siblings and friends struggle to raise theirs, I was simply making the point that it's very easy to slag parents off for what is often a difficult, and usually a thankless task. The added pressure of juggling between work and home life, and doing the mental sums about how much attention versus how much material benefit you can provide have, IMO, made a difficult task even harder. Think about it. With house prices what they are these days, dual incomes are almost essential. One parent ceasing to work for several years is often simply not viable (leaving aside the issue of whether they might actually enjoy their job and not want to leave it). The alternative is to put off having children up to the point where health issues for mother and child begin to arise.

Having got all that off my chest, I can now smugly add that in our case Mrs H gave up work until the younger daughter went to primary school, and I would have done the same if Mrs H had been earning more than me. But that doesn't entitle me to criticise those who do not have the luxury of that option.

 

[Matt F]

It's easy to say this but have you really considered it? Would you really give your job up if you thought it was best for your child?

If you dont need two incomes how can you conclude your child is better off in a nursery full time than at the most part time?

Their early years disappear in the blink of an eye and them having a "comfortable" lifestyle is no relacement for time with Mum and/or Dad.

Without a shadow of a doubt - sending him (and more recently his little sister) to nursery from an early age bothered me a lot until I saw how he was developing, how happy he was/is and how his social skills are.

Maybe part time at nursery is the ultimate - it surely must be better than no time at nursery (and this comes from someone who never went to nursery).

I would love a part time contract and I know the other half plans to work no more than 4 days a week once she buys into a practice. When that happens then I guess the children may well reduce nursery time.

As it is, we try to give them quality time at weekends and before/after work. How I would get on looking after them full time I don't know - I can say that after a busy/demanding weekend with young children, it is sometimes a relief to get back to work!

I think there is also something in when you start them at nursery - I've seen 1 or 2 year olds being dropped off for the first time and having a head fit. Our two went there are soon as the wife's maternity leave ended (3 or 4 months old) so it has always been normal to them.

So, I'd say that if you have a decent nursery then sending kids there full time is not a problem. They can give so much to children - all kinds of activities no matter how messy, group activities plus they are fully qualified to do the job and that's all they have to worry about (unlike many parents looking after kids at home I'd suggest).

I've also heard tell that primary school teachers can immediately spot the ones who have attended nursery as they have a head start in both learning and social skills.

I'd advocate all pre school kids spending some of their time at nursery. I can't state that full time is best but if my happy, well developing little souls are anything to go by it can work very well indeed.

I wouldn't criticise parents for deciding not to send their kids to nursery (although I would point out the benefits a decent nursery can offer) but, similarly, I get a little annoyed if those same people try to enforce their beliefs on me by suggesting that sending kids to nursery full time is a bad thing - what they are saying is that they are better at raising kids than qualified nursery staff and that looks somewhat arrogant in black and white.

You know, we're not talking about boarding school here - we're talking about enstrusting your kids and their welfare to qualified, decent people (just as you have to with schools) and then ensuring that the time you do spend with them is of the highest quality.

Matt.

 

[greg]

I'd advocate all pre school kids spending some of their time at nursery. I can't state that full time is best but if my happy, well developing little souls are anything to go by it can work very well indeed.

I'd probably agree with you

I wouldn't criticise parents for deciding not to send their kids to nursery (although I would point out the benefits a decent nursery can offer) but, similarly, I get a little annoyed if those same people try to enforce their beliefs on me by suggesting that sending kids to nursery full time is a bad thing - what they are saying is that they are better at raising kids than qualified nursery staff and that looks somewhat arrogant in black and white.

I wouldnt really say I'm guilty of enforcing my beliefs on anyone, I just laid out my opinion which might be contraversial, but is nevertheless what I believe, though I think the way I stated it - ie. "damaging their kids" is not an accurate reflection of what I believe.

Forget about development and education for a moment. This performance based approach is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about affection, togetherness and sharing between parent and child, not child and nursery staff member. All the qualifications and patience in the world doesnt make a nursery staff member an equivalent (or better version) of a child's parent.

I just cant share your view (based on my experience with our four children) that nursery staff should "raise kids". That's a parent's job IMHO.

It's not to suggest you are a bad parent (not that what I think matters to you) and I have many faults with my own parenting, such as bringing the stresses of my working life home and finding it hard to switch into 'fun and patient dad' mode. You a probably a star in this area, so apologies for any offence caused in my focus on this one thing.

You know, we're not talking about boarding school here - we're talking about enstrusting your kids and their welfare to qualified, decent people (just as you have to with schools) and then ensuring that the time you do spend with them is of the highest quality.

Yes we have to entrust our children with school but that's at school age. I wouldnt apply quite the same view with regards to children under 4 years old.

I accept there are good and bad nurseries, but I would maintain that a child under 4 years old has a range of instinctive requirements which can only be properly served by one of their parents. I agree it's a great idea to expose them to a variety of environments, people and other chidren, but nursery for 8/9 hours a day, 5 days per week just seems inappropriate to me, but maybe its just me.

I just feel for the few years that kids are very young they need parental continuity as they find their feet. Sacrificing some material things to achieve this, for that relatively short time seems to make sense, although this can be far more complex when it comes to trying to maintain a true career I agree.

But once those years are gone they are gone forever so I/you need to be sure what we chose was right.