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Buy a Rega or a Pro-Ject, either new or second hand and sit it somewhere sensible.

Avoid suspended decks for now. Suggestions like "You can't go wrong with a second hand LP12/TD160 etc." are, I would suggest, misleading. They aren't bad decks but there's a lot of ways you could go wrong with one and I wouldn't ever recommend such a thing to a newbie to vinyl.
 
The 775SM was Mission's top table, and is a 'more-mass-is-better' design. Mission made a lower model called the 775, but it was not in the same class as the 77SM. The platter, a beautifully-milled piece of aluminium is very heavy is supported on an un-suspended base -also surprisingly heavy. Utilitarian looking to be sure but the engineering is first rate, with excellent bearings. This is not a direct drive table (it's belt driven) and the motor sits underneath / in the chassis. The base is supported on large sorbathane feet, and there is also a sorbathane mat which sits on the platter.

The Alphason HR100S is a bargain. The arm is pure titanium, and is meticulously engineered to very high tolerances. If sold today (Alphason stopped making these a long time ago), it would be at least $3000. The Stanton 881S MM cartridge an older model, can't really compete with decent moving coil designs. Its a little coloured and unable to retrieve the same level of micro / macro dynamic detail, and lacks the same transient speed/accuracy. However, it is ' musical' and tremendous fun, - at its best was capable of putting me in the room with the performers and audience (a lot of this has to do with the Alphason and my phonostage though) . Its high output means it can be driven with a wide variety of phonostages. My current cartridge, the Dynavector Karat 17D2, is well-regarded, but I still commend the sound of the Stanton, even given it is well out-classed by the 17D2.

Putting a vinyl rig together is not cheap when everything is said and done. The challenge I think is to pick pieces that are well thought-of and less expensive so the combined cost is manageable. Getting well-regarded pieces ie the Linn LP12 etc means the option is always there to resell quickly if not to your liking.

The character of the sound of the rig I described, is a very weighty full-bodied presentation. Bass performance is exemplary. The Alphason arm is as detailed and neutral as you can get iregardless of price and is synergistic with the Stanton which could use a little help to define the details. The 775SM table is on the warm/dark side of neutral which is an excellent synergy for the highly-detailed and neutral Alphason. This whole TT combo does not convey quite the same level of 'air' and will lack a bit of sparkle compared to the best tables I've heard but then again, at a price. Overall, this combo is very musical - great for jazz, classical, eighties, R&B anything you care to play actually. You could probably put this rig together for about 500 pounds sterling if lucky.

I'm aware of the dangers of making assertions that one format is better than another, but I have found that in general vinyl will involve me more, and I am put in the room with the performers. My own personal feeling is that vinyl is definitely higher fidelity, but thats just me. I've never had the feeling of thereness, and aliveness to such an extent with CD as I have had with vinyl.
The better the phonostage the better the result.
 
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shrink said:
go get yourself a michell Syncro... you will pick one up with a rega arm and decent cart for less than a few hundred and its a huge step up over the basic rega decks. It can respond amazingly well to modifications and it takes a heck of a lot more money to better it conclusively.

my friend went from a syncro to an SME 20/2A and thats quite a jump needed to really come out ahead. I now have the syncro and couldnt be happier.

Its also frankly a work of art in the visual department and leaves pretty much any turntable for dead when it comes for looks vs price.
Click to expand...

Good post !
 
Thanks for all the helpful comments and advice. Due to this post, i was offered a Thorens TD160 with sp16 arm and a basic shure cart. Just bought it home, set it up quickly..phoned the seller as it kept skipping (I didnt realise there was a protector on the cartridge) and put on a record Ive been playing to death on cd...I rate my cd player quite highly.
Frankly, Im gobsmacked at how different it sounds to cd. I thought theyd sound sort of similar ( i have no experience whatsoever of record players), but I cant quite believe how different it sounds. Now, this may only be a first excited impression, but the bass sounds completely different to cd and it seems very listenable. The soundstage is certainly bigger, but i dont feel that the vocals are as rounded as my cd. All in all, for just under a ton, I have a new avenue to explore and am delighted. I may be premature here, but , Ive always felt that something isnt quite right with cd, the same may be true of vinyl, but based on what Ive just heard, i think I may just be a convert. Any suggestions for a new cart, should I want one? the shure cart I have with the player is 25 years old, so may be tired. Do people tend to purchase carts 2nd hand, or do you always need to purchase new?
 
I'm very pleased that your've had such success with the thorens...as I say my 160 is an un finished project ......waiting in the wings.
 
Yes its an absolute relevation how poor cd can sound against a half decent tt.....

the td160 is a very much underestimated tt I've heard them put lp12's to the sword [back in the days when lp was de rigure]

the other wonderful thing about thorens is that its hugely tweakable

even just damping the internals with bitumen will give you a silly smile .....this was basically the difference between the standard 160 and the super ....

if your running with the plastic arm board get make borrow steal etc an arm board made from perspex or aluminium this needs to be bolted to the sub chasis rather than with the self tappers ....

Also if theres foam dampers in the springs ..these should be removed a la the 160 super.
 
Agreed. The TD160, although considerably cheaper than the LP-12, was about 80% as good as the LP-12 (conjecture i know).
The LP-12 had better quality components in the main, however the tweaks/upgrades for an LP-12 were also considerably greater cost than the upgrades/tweaks for a 160.
All in all, the 160 was, and stil is, a cracking little turntable. You just need to avoid bad examples which can be as costly to fix as buying a good LP-12
 
banpe2006 said:
Any suggestions for a new cart, should I want one? the shure cart I have with the player is 25 years old, so may be tired. Do people tend to purchase carts 2nd hand, or do you always need to purchase new?
Click to expand...


Do you have a load of old records you value, or just one or two from a thrift shop?

Basically a shagged old cartridge can do permanent damage to your vinyl. If you have a precious collection, then just get a brand new cart.

If you've got a few oxfam records you don't care about, then stick with what you have!


Carts - the combination of a cart and an arm gives a specific resonance. Some combinations should be avoided.

I don't know your arm so can't help there. Probably someone will know.
 
thanks bottleneck, my records are limited, but I bought 20 the other day from Samantha - very good. how do you know if it needs to be replaced? Im sure there are no issues as the seller ..andy831 is a top guy and very open. There are a few other questions Ive considered after using the player.
1. I havent a record cleaner, so ive been uing a damp cloth..OK? or not? Do they still make those cigar thinies, with black felt and water inside?
2. How do you get rid of static and what happens if you dont?
3. Some of the records I have are old and have marks..can i rub them off with a damp cloth? or will it scratch the record. Ive been giving some a good rub.
4. What cartridge would be good for a tp16 arm?
5. does playing a badly scratched disc knacker up the cart / needle?

To think that when i started this thread, i was CD only, and now im TT also - great. Ive got some copies of albums I have on cd, im just having a bit of fun switching between the two. Found out some classics - Genesis - mama, Some old beatles, Roy orbison was on back to back last night, Roxy music (cracking album) and some other stuff, Tom Jones, Four Tops, Billy Joel, Fleetwood Mac etc etc...Really like the vinyl, pops, crackles, the lot. Found a wombles original album, and an old 4 disc nursey rhyme set (up the loft) from when i was a kid...its got some pretty big scratches, but bought back some memories...
 
Goodo for taking the vinyl plunge. I went away then came back.
Nowadays I can happy live with both CD and Vinyl. If I had to chose one I wouldnt hesitate to pick vinyl first.

Ill let others more qualified answer your questions.

Hunting out cheap vinyl is a great pastime that often puts a grin on my face when I play a forgotten gem at home. Smiling doesnt seem to happen with CD so much.

I usually buy second hand cartridges this is a way to save lots of money. There is a risk- you pays your money and takes your choice

regards
Andy
 
Ha! I got Genesis's Mama! On vinyl I have to turn down Phil Collins maniacal laugh, as it just creeps me and everyone else within a 200 yard radius - try that on CD! Flesh & Blood is a superb Roxy album, and the production/pressing on Fleetwood Macs Tango in the Night is right up there.

I've found a new listenability to music I would have confined to old duffers! On my charity shop offerings I've used warm water, liquid soap and a VERY VERY thorough series of rinses to get the clag out of Peter Gabriels Sledgehammer, and that again (50p!!!) after a dry, is bloomin excellent.

Yes I know I should NOT wash records in the sink, but I think it might have had some period Malibu on it!
 
if Andy says the cartridge is newish, then I'm sure you will be fine :)

Theres a few tables on websites that will help you see the correct cart weight for your arm. I cant remember where they are any more, it's been years.

If no-one answers PM SCIDB.
 
if your going to rinse records do the final one with deionised water ....it will flush all the carbonates [from hard water] away plus gobble up the deturgent left .....

there are lost of very effective diy cleaning solutions .....a wetting agent a drop of deturgent a few drops of isoproyl alcohol and de ionised water .......
 
Hi. One very cost effective record celaner is the knosti Disco Antistat, Simple but very effective, and can be had (form a german website but cant remember which one) for about £30.
Good point Zanash about the de-ionised water. I found that using the Disco antistat alone could leave a film. Rinsing inthe De-ionised water made the record sing.

Regards

John
 
Thanks, how do i know that the needle / cart is ok? its supposed to be 20 years old.....is there a way to test? and can wiping with a damp cloth harm the needle at all?
 
I have to say, and this is a personal thing, i would never use a 2nd hand cartridge. It can be ok if you know the person you bought it off very well, however you can be unlucky and get hold of a cartridge that would damage your precious vinyl. You can actually buy some very good budget cartridges such as the Goldring EROICA MC (to name just one) for about £120, however do a search on your arm and see if you can obtain some suggestions as to ideal matches.

You can clean the stylus with specialist cleaner/stylus brush but be careful as astringent cleaners can loosen the mounting.
Regards
John
 
Banpe - good to hear that you are having fun playing records.

The needle I believe won't be damaged playing scratched records (they still are a teeny tiny diamond tip arn't they?) but not sure I'd be comfortable if too bad still.
You have however more change of the needle damaging the vinyl if the needle is kaput.
Andy is a top chap though so if he was saying the cartridge was fine, it prob will be - but if he was unsure - perhaps worth pricing some options up. As I say, I got an expensive TT but still only a £70 cartridge, no need to go nuts at this stage.
I don't know the Thorens at all so I can't recommend ones to try.
Record cleaner - I got the Antistat that someone already recommended and I find it very good. Not for doing individual records before playing though - this is a Sunday afternoon cleaning a whole batch and leaving them to dry off fully. With some of the marks - if they don't impact the sound, I would leave them - no point taking risks..
As for the crackles, get drawn into the music and you start to not hear them anymore, the depth and expanse of the music is what you hear and feel.
 
Hi Sam

We really must get together soon, my vinyl replay equipment has taken several fairly giant leeps forward over the last 12 months since I bought the Garrard Turntable and 12" Sme arm, I really think you will like it. (I guess i owe you for several albums too ;) ) Also the Glasshouse 300b amplifier is an excellant peice of equipment I think you will enjoy.

Banpe

Nice to meet you Sunday, sorry it had to be so brief, maybe next time we can make some time to play some music.

The Thorens is an excellent turntable and will sit happily in most people system without the need to ever upgrade IMHO. As I suggested to you, the weak link is undoubtably the arm and cartridge.

The cartridge is old and would benefit from a replacement, however as far as I could detect it sounded acceptable and although I have shit eyes these days, but through a modest magnifying glass I could not detect any stylus tip damage, so no wories about using it in the short term.

If you can find a replacement stylus for the Shure it would be worth obtaining. (Do not throw the cartridge out, its probably still worth £15 to £25 on ebay ;)) otherwise any modestly priced modern MM stylus will be worth investing in.

As regards the arm, The TP16 arm whilst appearing to be a cheap and cheerful thing it is actually much better than it looks, and again will have a value if you wanted to replace it. It was my intention to fit it with an SME 3009 which would be very "in keeping" with the look of the table, and sounds quite good. You could maybe even consider a more modern arm such as an RB250/300. Not sure about the geometry but I am sure someone across on Vinyl engine or Analogue Department will help you out with that.

Hope that helps

Andy
 
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