Upsampling bad?

[dcathro]

This reminds me of the arguments we used to have about multi-bit vs. bitstream

Then, as now, it's all down to the implementation. There are great DACs with upsampling and there are great DACs without it.

To generalise that upsampling kills the tune (or reduces involvement) is tosh. This is not universally the case.

Also, rhythm is no the be-all and end-all of involvement. Many other factors come into play and it probably varies from one musical genre to another. All hifi is a compromise, a blend of attributes. Some people prefer hifi that majors on rhythm, others prefer it to major on timbre, air, stage, etc. All of these things can be involving.

I am very happy with my upsampling CD player. The extra clarity and smoothness that it brings is well worth the loss of a little of the rhythmic involvement. My system was already tweaked to increase rhythmic involvement so I'm not losing much. It's still easy to follow a tune and remain engaged (entranced even).

My hihi journey is not over yet though. The Dynaudios have opened a new door and I am now wondering what else there is to be discovered.

Coherence...

...but that's another thread

Chris,

If YOU are happy with your system then GREAT, but I could not live with it.

Dave

 

[ChrisPa]

Equally, ASRC's are claimed to "reject" jitter, what happens is actually that the input jitter is "hardcoded" into the output signal while the output signal now has a clear clock. Compared to a propper re-clocking mechanism this again is a disimprovement.

Can you explain this a bit more please

Ta.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Can you explain this a bit more please

Not really without going to a great length. Think aboutr it this way, an ASRC will determine the ratio between output and input sample and will use that ratio to look up the conversion. If the input frequency varies then the looked up conversion will be not quiet accurate for that sample.

Thinking about an ASRC as perfect D2A coversion followed by another A2D conversion using a completly seperate clock (eg somewhat similar to running the signal analogue into a tape machine). The first D2A conversion embedded the jitter in the signal, unremovable. The second conversion will use a local, low jitter clock, but it cannot do anything about the jitter already present.

By comparison using reclocking based on a suitable clock linked to the input clock but with a very low lowpass corner frequency will simply eliminate the jitter, without altering the signal whatsoever.

Not sure if that clarifies or muddies things.

Ciao T

 

[technobear]

If YOU are happy with your system then GREAT, but I could not live with it.

How do you know? You haven't heard it!

It's not 'uber hifi'. I would be bored otherwise. It's a very musical system, a subtle blend of all that's good about home audio

 

[Stereo Mic]

You guys sure have made me curious of the CD-7. I like the 16 bit NON-OS sound, but I find my Ack dAck a bit too 'busy'. Would CD-7 give me the same type sound, but with a better controlled presentation when the going gets tough? What does it use for a digital/analog filter? Any easy mods? I find this player very promising.

Three filters stored on DSP so you have a choice. I love the thing. Colloms still uses his as a reference. I find it gets to the heart of the music. The only other place you can get the double crown TDA's appears to be the Zanden! For a long time, the CD7 has been the only player I could live with next to a vinyl rig, it seems to possess similar communication skills.

Why the f*** would you want to mod a classic? Even the freebie interconnects seem to work better than some highly esotecric models. KI spent a lot of time getting this one right. I would only add a quality kettle lead and sit back to enjoy the music.

 

[dcathro]

Three filters stored on DSP so you have a choice. I love the thing. Colloms still uses his as a reference. I find it gets to the heart of the music. The only other place you can get the double crown TDA's appears to be the Zanden! For a long time, the CD7 has been the only player I could live with next to a vinyl rig, it seems to possess similar communication skills.

The double crown is almost irrelevant (Try hearing the difference to a single crown). Martin Colloms has modified the s**t out of his.

Why the f*** would you want to mod a classic? Even the freebie interconnects seem to work better than some highly esotecric models. KI spent a lot of time getting this one right. I would only add a quality kettle lead and sit back to enjoy the music.

If it is so right, then why does removing all the silmics from the output stage improve it?

 

[dcathro]

How do you know? You haven't heard it!

It's not 'uber hifi'. I would be bored otherwise. It's a very musical system, a subtle blend of all that's good about home audio

Chris,

I have not heard 'YOUR' system, but I have heard the different components. I am not trying to belittle your choices, but you are arguing that bitstream and Up Sampling are fine for rhythm. My question is, have you heard a system that IS Good at portraying rhythm. Are you sure you are not a blind man giving directions?

 

[Stereo Mic]

The double crown is almost irrelevant (Try hearing the difference to a single crown). Martin Colloms has modified the s**t out of his.



If it is so right, then why does removing all the silmics from the output stage improve it?

All of course in your very humble opinion.

I don't do mods, they are generally IMO a total waste of money and time. Why buy some thing and try to make it different? Why not buy something you like in the first place? And don't give me the improvement line because all I hear with mods is changes not improvements, not from a musical point of view anyway.

Garmt,

if you are interested in a fit and forget CD spinner, give the CD7 a whirl, I have compared it to most of the current range topping products and would not change despite the funds being available.

 

[dcathro]

I don't do mods, they are generally IMO a total waste of money and time. Why buy some thing and try to make it different? Why not buy something you like in the first place?

I do buy something I like in the first place. You have to start with something that works, there is no point in trying to modify a Sony.

It is not a matter of making it different, it is a matter of preserving and enhacing what you like about it in the first place.

There are limtations on what a manufacturer can and must do within his economic and regulatory constraints. For example all CD players must have (as part of the redbook specification) de-emphasis circuitry. This is because in the first days of CD some (I believe mainly Japanese) CD manufacturers put high freq emphasis on the CD's as part of overcoming some of the then sonic limitations. I have 600 CD's, and non of them have any emphasis, yet the de-emphasis circuit is quite intrusive. The manufacturer has to put it in, but I can take it out.

For £200 I can add an external power supply, that the manufacturer would have charged me £2000.

The manufacturer is also limited in his part choice for simple economic reasons. I agree great care has to be taken, because each part was still chosen for its sonic contribution. This is where many people go wrong. Most people who do mods simply remove all the cheap parts and replace them in bulk with the most expensive or best they can find. In my experience, each and every single part has to be listened to in turn. E.g. sometimes a NP Black Gate will work a treat, and other times it sounds awful, with the original part sounding better.

It takes many many hours to improve a product, though with experience there are some almost universal changes that are quite quick.

And don't give me the improvement line because all I hear with mods is changes not improvements, not from a musical point of view anyway.

Well if you have not tried, then you will never know, but I can understand your reluctance. It is far easier to make something worse or break it than it is to improve it. I have broken (blown up) and ruined quite a few things in my time

Regards

David

 

[eric_audio]

I think we need to understand what happens with "upsampling" (sorry to those who know this well, I am trying to keep this on Discovery channel level).

Thank you for the explanation. Finally I seem to understand it a little. I needed obviously this Discovery Channel level...

 

[zanash]

Thanks too....