!! West Country Bake-Off !!

[technobear]

I think the choir may have benefited from playing a bit louder. We were still using fairly low volume at that point. I think the Dynaudios sound a bit more dynamic and more life-like at higher levels. Others have said the same. I wonder if this is true generally of low efficiency speakers. I have read many reports that say high efficiency speakers are much better at reproducing dynamic contrasts at any level, loud or quiet. (Edit: I wonder if this is because they make an easier load for the amplifier???)

I tend to find that classical music needs to be played at quite a high level in order to make the instruments sound real. If we had a real piano and cello in the room with us, it would be pretty loud. Then again it depends how close the listener is to the stage I suppose.

I think dynamic range/contrast may be part of the reason your discs didn't sound so good. There are also issues with the separation of instruments and voices. The CDX did it a fair bit better than the 192. I think the soundstage is also important for orchestral and choral music. Cathedrals or whatever are big places. If the system doesn't reproduce that believable acoustic space then it won't sound right. Here the 192 won out over the CDX.

Seems I need a better CD player. I need to keep the soundstage and imaging of the Arcam (or better it) but with better separation, more refinement and perhaps slightly less emphasis on voices.

Not sure what to shortlist. I can't afford to spend thousands on a Wadia

I also want to hear a few high efficiency speakers, especially of the single driver variety, to see what they can do.

 

[Coda II]

I think the choir may have benefited from playing a bit louder.

:yikes:

that'll be me in the deck chair at the bottom of the garden then

 

[technobear]

The question is why does your system do it better? You've already said you are sitting futher away so your speakers will already be playing louder to compensate for the increased distance.

(Note for newbies: sound level decreases in proportion to the square of the distance from the speakers)

The PMCs are transmission lines whereas the Dyns are reflex. I notice that the PMCs are slightly more efficient (1 dB). Frequency response is much the same though. I wonder how they differ in transient response. Using the CDX showed that the Dyns don't seem to get confused when the mix gets busy.

It's the Arcam that gets a little confused although it does remain musical for the most part. Then there is that slight harshness. It's not severe but it is enough to become tiring after a while. I wonder if this is an artifact of the upsampling. The Alpha 9 was never harsh or tiring.

Experience would suggest that the Cyrus gear is more explicit in the treble and this may be where the differences lie. Maybe it reveals more detail than the Arcam. Or maybe it just has a different presentation which emphasises different apsects of the performance. The Arcam definitely has a thing for voices. The Alpha 9 used to do it too. It kind of suits what I listen to though.

 

[felix]

I have read many reports that say high efficiency speakers are much better at reproducing dynamic contrasts at any level, loud or quiet. (Edit: I wonder if this is because they make an easier load for the amplifier???)

Actually I think it's because there is a qualitative difference in distortions produced by cones barely moving as far and voice coils not being heated (as when being driven harder in 'small' speakers). Don't overlook the fact that the efficiency increase comes from the cones being better matched in terms of impedance with the air - this means that the drivers are more effectively damped, too.

Drop me a line when you're next up to Bath and you'll be welcome to see if it's a difference you care for!

I tend to find that classical music needs to be played at quite a high level in order to make the instruments sound real. If we had a real piano and cello in the room with us, it would be pretty loud. Then again it depends how close the listener is to the stage I suppose

That's an interesting point. I find that music coming from 'acoustic' sources seems always to sound best at levels that approximate 'live'. For example - solo guitar sound thin if it's too quiet, but just plain wrong when too loud. Rock and electronica seem far more forgiving on this front - indeed the temptation is always just to turn it up to get 'more' -though maybe that's just expectation (again) colouring percepts of what 'good sound' is.

 

[Coda II]

The question is why does your system do it better? You've already said you are sitting futher away so your speakers will already be playing louder to compensate for the increased distance.

In very broad terms I would say that the sound I get is far more like the Nait 2, ie it doesn't do a whole lot of things that your set-up does and if you were to spend a couple of hours with it you would probably find yourself a little bored.
In terms of air space my room is 4.3 x 4.5 with a lowish ceiling which I would guess is around the same total volume as yours (though different shape). I think it was also apparent that most present listen to their music a fair bit louder than I do.

The thing I find at home is that the 'problems' are ones of omission; there are things I would like to get more of: 'the woody tone of a cello' that Martin picked up on for instance and certainly the way that the tangible vibration of the sound extends into the room, as in the bass duets of yours.
But it doesn't do much that I don't like so the question is: how to get the bits you want without adding stuff that you don't.
My hope for a volume control is that it can bring you closer or push you further (front row stalls > upper circle) from the performance - rather than: it needs to be loud to get the balance right.
I agree that their seems to be a 'right' volume for acoustic sources but would add that a concert grand in a domestic living room is too loud.

 

[felix]

My hope for a volume control is that it can bring you closer or push you further (front row stalls > upper circle) from the performance - rather than: it needs to be loud to get the balance right.

That is one thing that ESLs do superbly. The other thing they do is present allthe details, but in such a coherent fashion you don't hear it as 'detail' - to the extent that if you were weaned on cones'n'domes they can sound dull at first audition!

 

[technobear]

That is one thing that ESLs do superbly. The other thing they do is present allthe details, but in such a coherent fashion you don't hear it as 'detail' - to the extent that if you were weaned on cones'n'domes they can sound dull at first audition!

Interesting you say that as I expected some of you to find my system dull initially. It doesn't do 'showroom fireworks'. It more kind of grows on you.

It does have a tinge of hardness/harshness though, so today I have been experimenting (spurred on by some things I read at your website, felix ).

The sub is out of the picture. I have rearranged the wiring of the Trichord so that it now has british sockets. I have turned the american sockets into an extension block so that I can still use Tony's cables. So I have standard mains leads, Eupen 05/04, Tony's leads, a Sound Fantastic and a Trichord Powerblock 1000. I am now in the midst of trying as many permutations as I can think of.

I won't pre-empt the results, but so far there have been some casualties

And a reduction in hardness

 

[la toilette]

I also want to hear a few high efficiency speakers, especially of the single driver variety, to see what they can do.

I might be able to help you out there at some point if you get desperate - I have a pair of Tannoy Cheviots with 12" dual concentric drivers, quite efficient I think, not exactly the latest model but kind of classics(ish), not sure if this is the kind of speaker you mean though. I'm in Yeovil which ain't far from you. You'd probably want to hear them in your system, so if you wanted to borrow them for a weekend I'm sure that could be arranged. I love 'em, they'd be the last thing in my system that I'd consider changing. Of course they have terrible spring terminals which I must get around to changing......one day....

 

[felix]

And a reduction in hardness

Did you get that by unplugging the Trichord, or at least some sort of filter..?</guess>

 

[technobear]

Did you get that when by unplugging the Trichord..?</guess>

No, the Sound Fantastic. The difference is slight but it is definitely there. I swapped back and forth six times to make sure I wasn't hearing things. It shows on voices, on electric guitar and on brushed drums and cymbols. It's subtle, but real and annoying.

Using standard mains leads, I am struggling to hear any effect from the Trichord, good or bad, with the selected music. It doesn't seem to add hardness or harshness. I should add that I haven't been listening at very high levels, only 10 o'clock on the dial.

I've spoken to Tony and he's given me some more ideas to try so this will continue tomorrow (now where did I put that electric drill ).

It's interesting listening without the sub. On some things I don't miss it. Even those timpanies still sound pretty good. I miss it on stadium rock though.

 

[technobear]

... I have a pair of Tannoy Cheviots with 12" dual concentric drivers...

I used to lust after Cheviots and Berkeleys in my mis-spent yoof

I could never afford them

I'd love to pop down and hear them some time.

I was thinking more along the lines of single drivers though. The Tannoy is technically a 2-way, albeit a very good one. I have my eye on a pair of these in open baffles:

http://www.supravox.fr/haut_parleurs/215_SBIC.htm

 

[la toilette]

I'd love to pop down and hear them some time.

You'd be most welcome!