who has a sub?

Originally posted by Mr_Sukebe
In comparison, I still rate WMs stereo as being the best CD based system I've heard, yet there's not a sub in sight, just a well tweaked and integrated system with a well driven pair of good 2 way floorstanders.
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that just happens to be situated in a room with substantial gain below 200hz;)

With CDM1's, I would not try a sub of less quality than the CDM sub itself or the ASW675. Also, don't forget that whilst you may add some extension, you will most likely add shed loads of distortion too, unless you choose very carefully.
 
I have the B&W CDM 1NT's and am using a JBL Northridge E150 sub. Now this retails at £300. Does it make a difference? Yes. Is it a posative difference? Yes.
If some one offered me a Rel Strom III (and I wasn't buying a new house) for £500 would I bite their hand of? Yes!

A sub definitley makes a difference and I have to agree that for music you really need to pay a little more. But I'm plesently suprised with the JBL. I will be upgrading one day though. If I ever buy a house! But in no real hurry.
 
some excellent stuff,learnt a lot from this thread cheers

I will be looking at the Rel St range and the CDM sub itself or the ASW675DM,one of these 3,

I would prefer to keep the speakers tbh,i like them a lot
 
That B&W looks huge. REL Strata and Storm have a smaller footprint. The former is about the height of a coffee table, the latter a few inches higher. They disappear into a corner quite nicely.

Interesting that it has speaker outs. Does it have built in filtering to remove some of the bass from the main speakers? Interesting.

He doesn't say how old it is so it's hard to say how much it is worth. The second hand price shouldn't be based on what the latest model costs. It should be based on what that model cost.

For stuff in A1 condition, I use the following rough guide:
1 year 70%
2 years 50%
3 years 33%
4 years 25%
5 years 20%

Stuff which is rare or exceptionally good within its price group can and does fetch more but I don't think this sub will be in that category. If you're interested, email the guy and ask him how old it is. Remember that it has a couple of marks too. You can't see them from the poor photos he's posted.

A note on amplifier power - the amp in the sub need be no more powerful than your main stereo amp (although it does no harm if it is).
 
Ah the B&W looks great! I had the larger ASW3000 with the 15" cone and it sure could move some air.

For me it was a lot more punchy than even the higher end Rels such as the Stadium 111 so if domestically it's acceptable it would be a great choice.

Having said that, the newer B&W's are considerably better.


A note on amplifier power - the amp in the sub need be no more powerful than your main stereo amp (although it does no harm if it is).
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Sorry Chris but I'd argue that one. Most of the small sealed cabinets from B&W, Velodyne and others are driving the sub well below resonance, requiring substatial EQ to get the extension they need. This kind of setup requires a very large amount of power to pull it off.
 
Those high power subwoofers sure must be good for AV, but apparently dont integrate as well as RELs and MJ, the later have better filters with more frequency selection, they also seem to sound more similar to speakers...
 
Originally posted by lowrider
they also seem to sound more similar to speakers...
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What you mean heavily distorted low bass output;)

Only kidding (kind of) Antonio. I know you are delighted with your Rels. But personally I never got on with them, maybe something to do with differing music tastes - I don't know.
 
Originally posted by tones
Because I've owned Rogers LS3/5As for over 20 years (same ones!), I've always used subs, and I've never had this "integration" problem.
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Tones, I would really like to listen to your system some time. I'm an admirer of the little BBC monitors.

I'd like to ask about the perceived speed of the bass.

a) Do you find (in your set-up) that the LS3/5As have 'fast bass' when used on their own?

b) I imagine that you've got the subs pretty well integrated. When you bring them in, is the perceived bass speed faster, slower or about the same as when you use the monitors 'neat'?

It's a question that's taking my interest at the moment. If we refer to Michael's post ...
Originally posted by michaelab
When it was in (for music) I certianly had better bass extension but on removing it I felt that the bass was a lot tighter and more controlled even if it did lack those bottom few Hz
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Have other people found this?
Originally posted by Hex Spurt
... Second, your main speakers are positioned to give good stereo image or sometimes they're just put where they'll fit in a room. This might not be the best place for smooth bass response. A sub doesn't have to live with the main speakers, so there's a chance you can put it where it will give better results at bass frequencies. These are just my thoughts as to why there's an improvement, but there are some articles that seem to back up these theories.
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I must have read those articles, Hex. :) :)
 
Originally posted by lowrider
Those high power subwoofers sure must be good for AV, but apparently dont integrate as well as RELs and MJ, the later have better filters with more frequency selection, they also seem to sound more similar to speakers...
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Having used both I'd suggest the opposite is true i.e. subs with very low distortion are easier to integrate as there is no (or only an insignificant amount) of harmonic distortion being produced up at the same frequencies that the main speakers are producing.

Better filters I wouldn't go along with but, yes, the REL's of this world do seem to offer a better crossover range to many.

On the "sounding more similar" issue I'd go along with Merlin - yes a sub with higher distortion may well sound similar to the speakers, many/most of which produce a fair bit of distortion when playing the lower frequencies. I'm not sure, however, that not being able to produce bass accurately is a reason to rate a sub more highly than one that does it correctly!

On a slight tangent, there's an excellent Paul Miller piece on subs in the supplement that comes with the current issue of HiFi News - for once, distortion levels and frequency responses are measured and the results are interesting. On test were the B&W 850 (£2K monster, 1000 watts), the MJA Ref 1, the REL Stadium and an Infinity sub. As well as producing a fair amount of harmonic distortion, the MJA and REL's claimed frequency responses ended up looking very optimistic with the REL rolling off steeply below 25Hz and the MJA doing the same below 30Hz.

The B&W wiped the floor with the others - flat to 20Hz and distortion down at 1%. Possibly an unfair comparison as it costs a fair bit more than the others but it just shows that the big B&W and the likes of Velodyne's Digital Drive subs really are in a different league.

Matt.
 
There we go again, measurements versus hearing... :rolleyes:

I am talking about music, usually low energy at very low bass, so those measurements are useless... :p

7_V

I do feel that the bass is less tight when I xover above 60hz, otherwise no difference...


PS - Look what you have done to me, I just cannot use (:MILD: ) anymore, it makes me nervous... :(
 
Antonio,

to be fair, many Rels and the like do produce substantial distortion below typically 35hz, so what you get is the distortion at the bottom of the satellites' response (when used without HP) seemingly matching up with the characteristics of the sub.

As you say, do use your ears. But don't write off the likes of Velodyne, B&W and the rest. For me, their solution is preferrable. I mean, would you accept a speaker that gave you 30% thd at say 200hz?

usually low energy at very low bass, so those measurements are useless...
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Again Antonio, I think you are mistaken. Are you familiar with the equal loudness curve? An example is given in the article Matt refers to. Basically to get a 20hz to the same loudness as a 1khz tone at 80db SPL requires that it be reproduced at 114db SPL, an increase of 34db.

Now if you take a 10" driver as used by Rel, flat out it will produce 73db at the listening position, far too low for you to be able actually hear the tone. The only way to get realistic levels at very low frequencies is to use large cones with equally large excursion. And you need a shed load of power to control the drive unit.

It's not a dig, I know you are happy with the Rels, but do give the ASW850 a listen one day, you will be amazed.
 
I am sure you are right cientifically, still tube amps and others have much higher distortion than those high spec japs, and sound much better...

I dont write off anything, but I read a lot of music people, I mean with stereo systems, saying they didnt like Velodynes or similar, and found REL to integrate much better...

My system is AV, but it is tuned to music, movies come as bonus, and still I feel the sofa rumbling quite often, dont forget I have two 10" drivers in relatively large boxes...

Also, until I am unhappy with something, not at the moment, I wont bother testing more kit... ;)

I am busy now building my brother's system:

KEF 4 201 + 202C + the 4000 sub (in your line I guess)
Denon 2900 + 3803 (probably to be replaced by a processor)
Bel Canto eVo 6 ordered, the price came down $600 in the US
SONY plasma (not great)
Assortes cables, Kimber goes very well with KEF, I was surprised with the good sound out of the box...

Michaelab's Eupen would fit like a charm... :rolleyes:
 
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Originally posted by merlin

Now if you take a 10" driver as used by Rel,
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Pah!
Only 10"?
Why do you think bass players tend to use a 4x10" and a 1 (or 2) x 15" cab to get that proper low-down sound?
It's about moving air - the bigger the cone the more air it can move. A 10" cone has to flap about like an old ladies' fan to get any serious bottom end - no wonder there's distortion.

IMHO you need 2 subs if you're going to stand any chance of decent stereo (yes stereo!) bass - and because of the integration issue you're still better off with a proper floorstander. That's if you can get one any more with anything bigger than a measly 8" bass driver!
:SWMBO:
 
Bass players play in concert halls LOUD, not in a small living room at civilized levels... :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by lowrider
Bass players play in concert halls LOUD, not in a small living room at civilized levels... :rolleyes:
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Yes but remember it is unlikely that you will be sitting 7ft from the Stack at the concert Antonio;)
 
Originally posted by lowrider
Michaelab's Eupen would fit like a charm... :rolleyes:
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How many do you want? I've dug around in my "spare parts" bin and found 3 stock power cords so I've got 3 Eupens you can have for €60 each :)

Michael.
 
Originally posted by leonard smalls
Pah!
Only 10"?
Why do you think bass players tend to use a 4x10" and a 1 (or 2) x 15" cab to get that proper low-down sound?
It's about moving air - the bigger the cone the more air it can move. A 10" cone has to flap about like an old ladies' fan to get any serious bottom end - no wonder there's distortion.
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Just don't forget as I wrote somewhere before that every driver which is bigger than 12" 'break up' the cone. This means that when looking with a strobe light, the cone doesn't move up and down as a unit. You see waves in it. Especially very light cones break up and this makes lot of distortions. But this makes some colouring which is though very appreciated by lot of people.
 

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