zerogain name change -hi fi rage

[cooky1257]

It's, erm, really quite simple even for somebody who has difficulty with Tarantino.

Where? How? Show me were I'm having difficulty with Tarrantino-come on- You seem incapable of grasping the concept of analogy.But hey playing the man not the ball appears to be the stock in trade and so soon into the exchange too.

If you like your cables, believe you can 'spot' (bit of a giveaway that...) cable differences etc then fine, enjoy your music. If you claim some sort of external 'truth' as a consequence of your experiences, a truth that disappears as soon as it's looked at in a controlled way, then you get into difficulty as what you are professing is belief in magic.



Why is 'spot' a bit of a giveaway?of what exactly? a give away of what? Come on.
What external truth am I claiming? What?

You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I believe in magic? Well do you?


I'd be interested to know what cables you use and how you arrived at your choice-assuming it was a choice and not some random event.

Seems like you're predisposed to disagree with me anyway so I can't wait for your measured response.
F

 

[sastusbulbas]

Hopefully for the last time, I don't think anyone is saying all cables sound the same. If cables exhibit extreme differences in their LCR charateristics then they will most likely sound different. This is measureable.

If there are no measureable differences then your eyes are doing the listening. If you claim the differences were jaw dropping, your eyes were doing the listening. If you claim cables of doodaas turned noise into music, your eyes are doing the listening. If people are happy believing in fairy tales that's fine - just don't try to pass them off as facts without bringing considerable evidence to the table to confound the entire scientific community.

As for your Rogers Studio 1 - it's a Rogers Studio 1. What kind of bass do you expect? If you want to reduce the bloom find out the main frequencies (probably 40hz and 160hz if firing across the short wall) and try moving the loudspeaker or listening position into a null at those frequencies.

I actually find the Rogers perform quite well with a high current amp and carefull positioning. I have a late pair but have had some problems with bass using NAD and Technics amps with multi strand copper, switching to Naim Nac or solid core seems to help a little, but not as much as using a decent amp with current capability. I usualy use Classe amplification with Chord Chameleon + and Odyssey or Naim Nac5 with them. I quite like them.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Another couple of thoughts, what if?

If we have the above system with slightly bloated bass, and find getting rid of the thick copper multi strand cable and replacing it with thin DNM tames the lower bass does this in affect mean the cable is "taming" the room?

No it means that it wasn't a room issue in the first place and at least one of the cables is not fit for the purpose and measures appallingly.

What if we do not change the cable, but EQ the lower frequency to drop off steeper at 50-40hz, and find this has a similar affect and tames the bass bloom in the lower frequency? Is the EQ taming the room?

Yes EQ is treating the room, although you could argue that in the case of bass resonances as you describe, it is screwing up the direct signal and not preventing the slow build up of bass energy at the problem frequencies. It's not ideal but you will hear it.

What if we do neither of the above and substitute the low current amp for a high current model, and we find this seems to offer tighter bass and better control, making the bass bloom less noticable? Is the amp taming the room?

No once again, if that affects the bass, the issue had nothing to do with the room in the first place and one amplifier is operating outside of it's capabilities.

What if we just put the original system in a room of the same dimension with brick and plaster walls and a concrete floor and ceiling, will the same problems arrise?

Impossible to say as we don't know whether you've got a room issue, dodgy cables or a farked amplifier. The new room will sound substantially different though - although the main modes will remain the same.

Could all the above be quoted as taming a room problem, or a speaker problem, or an amp problem, or is it synergy or something else? Does it matter what one's opinion is regarding the problem if something makes it go away?

Yes it does matter as claiming the cable is taming the room is up there with seeing Elvis at Marylebone station and being abducted by aliens whilst walking your pet pekinese in Hyde Park.

 

[sastusbulbas]

No it means that it wasn't a room issue in the first place and at least one of the cables is not fit for the purpose and measures appallingly.
Yes EQ is treating the room, although you could argue that in the case of bass resonances as you describe, it is screwing up the direct signal and not preventing the slow build up of bass energy at the problem frequencies. It's not ideal but you will hear it.
No once again, if that affects the bass, the issue had nothing to do with the room in the first place and one amplifier is operating outside of it's capabilities.
Impossible to say as we don't know whether you've got a room issue, dodgy cables or a farked amplifier. The new room will sound substantially different though - although the main modes will remain the same.
Yes it does matter as claiming the cable is taming the room is up there with seeing Elvis at Marylebone station and being abducted by aliens whilst walking your pet pekinese in Hyde Park.

This was all meant as a little tounge in cheek with some actual debate thrown in. But to be honest do some amps not control drivers better than others? and do some cables not show a difficult load to the amp (ala early Naim amps and fancy cable).

Plenty of people have had very good amps with very good speakers and blamed one or the other as having poor performance due to inconsistencies in bass or whatever. For instance the Nad C270 power amp has more watts than the Classe CA-100, yet the difference in bass performance with certain speakers is night and day! This does not mean the amp or speaker is to blame, but more a case of synergy is it not?
( I am sure some speakers do not respond well to high current designs with too much control?)

A technics SU-MA10 driving Kef 107 via Van Den Hul D-352 will clip quite alarmingly at modest volume during content with low low frequencies, but this is aleviated slightly with Nac5, the amp seeming to be less ditressed at the same volume setting. This I assume IS due to LCR and cable construction though.
I guess this is not a case of appaling cable, but one being more suited than the other to the task and system?

To be honest I thought the room taming cable lark was read into a little too much, I know I myself have a way of saying the wrong thing the wrong way.

As for room issues, I myself do have some, my previous room being quite large and of concrete and plaster construction, is now replaced with a smaller L shaped plaster board affair with suspended floors. To be honest I think cheaper electronics gave a better performance for the money in my previous room, than my better electronics with the same speakers in my current room. I was certainly less bothered about cables and supporting electronics back then, and didn't seem to need as much volume.

Anyway I do not want to be one either side of the fence, but maybe in the middle, my claims of hearing cable differences are probably more to do with the cables being of different construction. And I have to many systems and kit which I regulary swap around to be bothered too much about being correct in any thread discussion, as tommorow I may say the oposite ot change my mind?

Edit, I think my cables, amplifiers and speakers are fine, though not to everyones taste.

 

[RobHolt]

No it means that it wasn't a room issue in the first place and at least one of the cables is not fit for the purpose and measures appallingly.

Absolutely, DNM is a pathetically thin single strand cable with high loop resistance. It also has high inductance and can display slight roll-off at the top end with some speakers.
All measurable.

 

[Stereo Mic]

If you have an L shaped room, make sure you sit in the same segment as the speakers.

 

[Baudrillard]

Now, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!

Thomas Gradgrind - Hard Times

If there are no measureable differences then your eyes are doing the listening. If you claim the differences were jaw dropping, your eyes were doing the listening. If you claim cables of doodaas turned noise into music, your eyes are doing the listening. If people are happy believing in fairy tales that's fine - just don't try to pass them off as facts without bringing considerable evidence to the table to confound the entire scientific community.
.

 

[cooky1257]

Now, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!

Thomas Gradgrind - Hard Times

Sublime


Personal experience with digi cables threw up some interesting anomalies to my ears with a £12 VanDamme 'plasma grade' pro HD camera cable being the most convincing I've used so far.
It's 'quality' transferring to other friends systems with similar 'improvements' being clearly heard between different dacs/transports.
This must be one of those benign well designed cables-it'd be great to see how it measures but can't find any info from VanDamme except its 75 ohm imp and that it is low capacitance.Ironically it probably sounds good because it has no effect on the signal(ish)

 

[joel]

Now, what I want is, Facts.

The development of recording, playback, and the science of acoustics are all based on facts. There is no magic.
But we all believe what we want to, and all hifi forums have their flame-war moments for whatever reason. personally, I don't think it's worth getting excited about and I'm certainly not going to go off on long dissertations about why one or other approach works best.
IMO, the fundamental problem lies in treating audio as a "hobby'. It isn't, it is a means to an end. Lose sight of that and you get totally lost. All IMO etc etc

 

[JCL]

Certain types of people can't stand mumbo-jumbo (see Richard Dawkins) and won't tolerate it's association with their hobby.

I have sympathy with their cause as Hi-Fi is rife with such malarkey to the point of it almost being embarrassing. If nobody
stands up against it where will it end ?

These comments are nothing to do with anyone or anything that has been said on this forum.

 

[melorib]

Hopefully for the last time, I don't think anyone is saying all cables sound the same. If cables exhibit extreme differences in their LCR charateristics then they will most likely sound different. This is measureable.

If there are no measureable differences then your eyes are doing the listening. If you claim the differences were jaw dropping, your eyes were doing the listening. If you claim cables of doodaas turned noise into music, your eyes are doing the listening. If people are happy believing in fairy tales that's fine - just don't try to pass them off as facts without bringing considerable evidence to the table to confound the entire scientific community.

Of course you are right, I saw you there, measuring Zanash's cables...

ICs are behind the gear, we cannot see them from the listening position, you, on the other hand, seem to listen with a bunch of graphs and scientific books in front of you, no wonder you cannot hear any differences...

 

[mr cat]

excuse a newbie comment. but in a previous thread on cables can i agree with Uncle ants in that slagging each other off over these things is a total lack of respect for differing opinions.
I have to cope with car rage all day in busy traffic and really can`t cope with it on a hi fi forum. Perhaps we should change the name to Hi Fi rage.
as an old proverb says " a gentle answer turns away wrath":

and yes - as you can see - the way that this thread has decended into anarchy is exactly the reason this forum is heading into oblivion...

shame, as when I first joined it wasd an enjoyable place to be

 

[Stereo Mic]

can't find any info from VanDamme except its 75 ohm imp and that it is low capacitance.Ironically it probably sounds good because it has no effect on the signal(ish)

Ironically, that is all you need to know about it. No one needs to know if it's made of silver, "platalloy" or sheathed in shark sperm.

Out of interest, how does a digital cable effect timbre, dynamics and timing?

 

[Stereo Mic]

Of course you are right, I saw you there, measuring Zanash's cables...

I really don't think i need to measure his cables but Joel and others have asked him to provide some measurements to back up his claims. Sadly none have been forthcoming.

ICs are behind the gear, we cannot see them from the listening position

Marvellous. Out of sight out of mind? Again, tons of evidence to suggest nothing could be further from the truth - funnily enough there's also plenty of evidence to prove that if I swap your Bland and Dul IC's for Maplins whilst you aren't looking, you won't have a clue and you'll still be smiling away in blissful ignorance.

 

[Purite Audio]

Kevin hasn't persuaded you to buy some Kondo cable then!

 

[melorib]

Marvellous. Out of sight out of mind? Again, tons of evidence to suggest nothing could be further from the truth - funnily enough there's also plenty of evidence to prove that if I swap your Bland and Dul IC's for Maplins whilst you aren't looking, you won't have a clue and you'll still be smiling away in blissful ignorance.

That is your experience, I never heard Maplins nor Bland and Dul IC's, but I trust you on this one...

I really don't think i need to measure his cables but Joel and others have asked him to provide some measurements to back up his claims. Sadly none have been forthcoming.

Nevertheless you reached, and preached, your conclusions without knowing those measurements, are they really important to you, or you are just throwing sand into our eyes, as usual...

 

[Stereo Mic]

No Antonio, I said Zanash was talking rubbish when he claimed that hid cables could tame a room. I really don't need to measure them. Measureable differences are very small in real terms as I proved with the chart of loop resistance. The only large differences are in people's minds and sales men's patter.

 

[melorib]

No Antonio, I said Zanash was talking rubbish when he claimed that hid cables could tame a room.

None of us is writing a writ, in forums, where words should be used carefully, we all write fast and many times in the middle of doing other, probably more important, things, using wrong choice of words, including you and me, who cares, what is the big problem...

I really don't need to measure them. Measureable differences are very small in real terms as I proved with the chart of loop resistance. The only large differences are in people's minds and sales men's patter.

They are indeed with well matched components, but sometimes they arent, for instance using Naim gear you need "special" cables, what makes you so sure this was not one of those "special" cases...

 

[Paul Ranson]

Why is 'spot' a bit of a giveaway?

Because it is associated with vision rather than hearing?

Paul

 

[cooky1257]

Ironically, that is all you need to know about it. No one needs to know if it's made of silver, "platalloy" or sheathed in shark sperm.

Out of interest, how does a digital cable effect timbre, dynamics and timing?

Mike,
I really don't know-(I am a total sceptic were these things are concerned-perhaps why I favour a pro route to audio heaven-you know belt and braces, honesty-no f***** bs).thats what was intrigueing me-everything in my head was telling me "but they're all supposed to be 75 ohm etc and it's a digital signal"-I don't get it but I do consistently go back to this interconnect for the overall togetherness and tonal balance it seems to allow my system to display.(a semantic f@@@@@g minefield this).My conclusion regarding cables is the best ones are electrically benign,measure well etc but and here's perhaps where we may differ,I think there may be more technically to what's going on than just LCR parameters.
There's some fascinating research going on into the brain/ear interface and the power of the audio processing going on on the fly-extremely high resolution fourier anaysis that is attuned to detect difference and change way beyond anything currently available to scientist and engineers.My gut feeling is we've a long way to go before we have anything like a clear picture.
Frank