2nd hand CD player experimentations

[Barnie]

Originally posted by michaelab
OK, I'll accept that supports are important for speakers aswell.
Michael. [/B]

Blimey Michael.......we've agreed on something

The main goal with speaker supports IMO is to support the speaker in such a way, as to allow the energy in the cabinets to reproduce as music and to minimalize the energy dumped into the support and in turn the floor. Speakers are always at war with their supports!

If your speaker supports aren't up to the job, then you can throw as many boxes at it as you like, but you'll never reap the rewards, no matter how good the boxes. It then follows that unless you support properly, you're unlikely to hear what the kit is capable of. That's why supports are supremely important and IMO not just under speakers.

Lot's of people reject kit 'cos they think it sounds wrong, if supported correctly, that same kit could be a killer!

Barnie

 

[The Devil]

I've messed around with various racks and support solutions and never noticed a difference that I would regard as anything more than very subtle. Even when we tested a Seismic Sink under a CDP at a bakeoff some time ago I heard no significant difference.

I agree completely. This was my view entirely, and I was the web's biggest Mana sceptic, until I tried Mana. I really thought that it was all a load of nonsense.

This is because all the other supports which I had tried didn't really work.

Seriously Michael, with good kit like yours, you should hear a major improvement in clarity and dynamics.

You will kick yourself, I did.

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by The Devil
I agree completely. This was my view entirely, and I was the web's biggest Mana sceptic, until I tried Mana.

When Jehova's Witnesses come to my door I usually tell them I'm a Roman Catholic (allthough I'm not) - works every time...anyone know what the magic reply is for Mana evangelists?

Michael.

 

[I-S]

That you're an unrepentant (seismic) sinnker?

 

[Barnie]

When Jehova's Witnesses come to my door I usually tell them I'm a Roman Catholic (allthough I'm not) - works every time...anyone know what the magic reply is for Mana evangelists?

Michael.

This is the... *Zero-to-be-gained forum* bugger off

 

[Ian Wright]

Hi Michael,

"When Jehova's Witnesses come to my door I usually tell them I'm a Roman Catholic (allthough I'm not) - works every time...anyone know what the magic reply is for Mana evangelists? "

I suggest you buy in??

Ian

 

[The Devil]

Those magic replies in full...

Originally posted by michaelab
When Jehova's Witnesses come to my door I usually tell them I'm a Roman Catholic (allthough I'm not) - works every time...anyone know what the magic reply is for Mana evangelists?

The magic replies are:

"I'd much rather spend two grand on this new whizz-bang CD player/amplifier/power conditioner/interconnect/mains lead because it will make me feel much warmer and fluffier than a £500 rack will"

Or

"The wife doesn't like it"

Or

"Everyone knows that supports don't make any difference"

Or

"Mana hasn't been reviewed for years, things have moved on, and the newer racks are far better"

 

[penance]

ypu forgot
" i worked on oil rigs all my life and want to get away from them"

 

[Lawrie]

Originally posted by michaelab
IME racks and support/isolation products have an influence that's subtle at best and often non-existent.

I really do wonder how people get sucked into the supports or cables myth (that they can make a bigger difference than box components) so convincingly

Michael.

Ah, I've just seen this thread. I agree wholeheartedly with Michael's comments. In fact, in many cases, all one has to do is just change the crappy feet used by many manufacturers especially on CDPs for one of the after market types such as Superspikes etc and then use a non-expensive but well put-together rack and the isolation will be just as effective as some of the mega-buck racks for hundreds of Euros cheaper unless someone cares to point out the error of my thinking? Also, what I don't understand and maybe someone can explain to me is when people comment about the 'sound' of a rack. How can a rack have a sound like amps or speakers? Has anyone else noticed this or is it just a case of audiophilia nervosa?

In fact speaking of Mana, two weeks ago whilst on a business trip to the U.S. I came across my first American Mana user in person and about time as well as I'd heard they existed but had never met one. I have met some U.K. users though. Anyway, although this guy uses the Mana rack, not sure what phase he is at, he has changed all the glass shelves for Neuance shelves - www.neuanceaudio.com He also went on to say that other Mana users he knows have done the same and reported 'remarkable' improvements in sound. So, are there any Mana users on the board that can confirm or deny this or that have have switched from Mana to other solutions? The Neuance shelf is also supposed to work superbly under TTs including suspended designs and in my view, this is the component that most requires isolation from vibration, moreso than CDPs and solid-state amps.

With regard to cables, well I think the differences between them are marginal and nothing to get too excited about. IMO, the power supply region deserves more attention than interconnects and speaker cables. Having said that, whilst in the U.S. I came into possession of some brand new 'highly regarded' audiophile cables (a gift from a fairy godmother) - one phono cable with right-angle DIN for my SME arm, and two pairs of interconnects. One of the interconnects is now on my tuner and at some point, I'll move them over to the CDP to see how good they are and this will be a sighted test as I am not out to prove anything as my money is not at stake.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

[Barnie]

Hi Lawrie

Ah, I've just seen this thread. I agree wholeheartedly with Michael's comments. In fact, in many cases, all one has to do is just change the crappy feet used by many manufacturers especially on CDPs for one of the after market types such as Superspikes etc and then use a non-expensive but well put-together rack and the isolation will be just as effective as some of the mega-buck racks for hundreds of Euros cheaper unless someone cares to point out the error of my thinking?

So what do you support your speakers with?

Also, what I don't understand and maybe someone can explain to me is when people comment about the 'sound' of a rack. How can a rack have a sound like amps or speakers? Has anyone else noticed this or is it just a case of audiophilia nervosa?

A rack doesn't have a sound, but it's influence can be heard through ya speakers!

In fact speaking of Mana, two weeks ago whilst on a business trip to the U.S. I came across my first American Mana user in person and about time as well as I'd heard they existed but had never met one. I have met some U.K. users though. Anyway, although this guy uses the Mana rack, not sure what phase he is at, he has changed all the glass shelves for Neuance shelves - www.neuanceaudio.com He also went on to say that other Mana users he knows have done the same and reported 'remarkable' improvements in sound. So, are there any Mana users on the board that can confirm or deny this or that have have switched from Mana to other solutions? The Neuance shelf is also supposed to work superbly under TTs including suspended designs and in my view, this is the component that most requires isolation from vibration, moreso than CDPs and solid-state amps.

Lookie here.........

http://manaforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=462298155&f=172298155&m=5594095803

Barnie.

 

[ANOpax]

The main goal with speaker supports IMO is to support the speaker in such a way, as to allow the energy in the cabinets to reproduce as music and to minimalize the energy dumped into the support and in turn the floor. Speakers are always at war with their supports!

Erm, Barnie. I think you'll find that energy in the cabinets is undesireable. Which is why some of us have speakers without cabinets at all .

The objective of all good speaker designs is to minimise the amount of energy transmitted to the cabinet, and thence from the cabinet to the room. I'd have thought that the essence of good stand design would be provide a conduit for that energy to go to ground rather than into the room. As a result, a good stand would do exactly the reverse of that which you postulate.

reg

 

[Lawrie]

Re: Hi Lawrie

Originally posted by Barnie
So what do you support your speakers with?

A rack doesn't have a sound, but it's influence can be heard through ya speakers!

Lookie here.........

http://manaforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=462298155&f=172298155&m=5594095803

Barnie.

Hi Barnie,

Thanks for that response but how about playing fair? I was making reference to component racks not speaker stands but since you asked so nicely, I support my speakers with the stands that they came with.

So that's what the Mana forum looks like? I must say though that I liked this quote from Fox when someone enquired about Neuance shelves:

Originally posted by Fox on the Mana Forum

If it was any good JW would replace the boards with Neuance boards (or a self-sourced analog) and make a killing selling us Mana "upgrades".

But it isn't
So he isn't

End of story.

Wow! What a response! No doubt Fox is in the priviledged position of having compared the Mana glass shelves to the Neuance and maybe could enlighten us about his experiences as the Neuance shelves are really making waves Stateside and this has piqued my interest? I must say though that I also found the carefully worded but 'apologetic' response of Scott Naylor on the Mana Forum quite amusing. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond Barnie.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

[Barnie]

Re: Re: Hi Lawrie

Hi Barnie,

Thanks for that response but how about playing fair? I was making reference to component racks not speaker stands but since you asked so nicely, I support my speakers with the stands that they came with.

That's what I used to do until the Mana arrived

Best regards

Barnie.

 

[Barnie]

.
The objective of all good speaker designs is to minimise the amount of energy transmitted to the cabinet, and thence from the cabinet to the room.

Tell that to Linn..............

I'd have thought that the essence of good stand design would be provide a conduit for that energy to go to ground rather than into the room. As a result, a good stand would do exactly the reverse of that which you postulate.

Try Mana then think again.....that energy is the same energy you pay fortunes for the amp to produce, why send it to ground?

All that's trying to be achieved is stopping the speaker waging war with it's support, mostly with deep bass, Mana puts that bass in the air not the floor!

 

[bottleneck]

Re: Those magic replies in full...

Originally posted by The Devil
The magic replies are:

"I'd much rather spend two grand on this new whizz-bang CD player/amplifier/power conditioner/interconnect/mains lead because it will make me feel much warmer and fluffier than a £500 rack will"

Or

"The wife doesn't like it"

Or

"Everyone knows that supports don't make any difference"

Or

"Mana hasn't been reviewed for years, things have moved on, and the newer racks are far better"

...but but but but!!

those responses just get more and more replies..... 20 pages or so seems to be the norm!!.

Maybe the kind of response needed is one I might use for a double glazing salesman...(see below, adapted to fit...)

''I have already fitted my entire house/hifi with double glazing/mana. Im sorry, but I have no further interest''.

what do you think?

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by ANOpax
...energy in the cabinets is undesireable.

Agreed. Mana sinks the cabinet vibrations/colorations into the stand, IME, so the cabinet vibrates much less on Mana than off it.

Sceptics such as Lawrie should try before condemning.

 

[ANOpax]

that energy is the same energy you pay fortunes for the amp to produce, why send it to ground?

Because it's an unwanted byproduct, stemmming from the energy inefficiency of placing dynamic drivers in enclosures.

The energy from you expensive amp should be pushing air, not making the speaker cabinet vibrate. The vibration is undesireable and should be eliminated or minimised.

reg

 

[bottleneck]

Reg -

totally agree with you ... well 90% agree! which is close.

I just wonder if a certain amount of ''vibrating cabinet induced distortion'' for want of a better way of putting it, might make the speaker sound a certain way which is considered desirable by the owner?

I havent done the anal audiophile thing and tried many many stands to see if this applies, but its an interesting take on it I think.

 

[Barnie]

The energy from you expensive amp should be pushing air, not making the speaker cabinet vibrate. The vibration is undesireable and should be eliminated or minimised.

reg [/B]

Hi reg,

whilst I agree a portion of that vibration is undesireable (Mana deals with that) How does a bass unit push air? My limited understanding of these things, tells me that the unit vibrates (back an forth) to push air, some of that vibration will obviously end up being transmitted to the cabinet, but the action of vibration is producing music surely? Stoping the cabinet vibrating will allow the unit to push air (vibrate) as it was designed, instead of adding extra vibrations to muddy the waters further. Whatever the issues are surrounding this Mana works! and that's what matters.

Have you ever tried using Mana?

 

[ANOpax]

Stoping the cabinet vibrating will allow the unit to push air (vibrate) as it was designed, instead of adding extra vibrations to muddy the waters further.

Exactly. Which is why cabinet vibration is undesireable.

Please take my comments on the subject of stands in reference to speaker stands since I was originally replying to your (mistaken, I believe) assertion that a good speaker stand is one which allows the speaker cabinet to vibrate.

As someone who has never used a commercial equipment support, I have no view on the efficacy of Mana or any other brand. But I remain open minded and when the time comes, will audition the available options.

reg