30 years on...

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Prove to me that the Moon is not composed primarily of cheese, then I'll get back to you with proof that your silly theory is equally wrong.
 
You offered the proof. Why retract? Did you realise you were wrong?

All the eveidence gathered by NASA, astronomists, and the scientific community suggest that the Moon is indeed not made of cheese.

All you are offering is that a polite pianist said your system sounded nicer than his/her sanyo mini system.
 
The Devil said:
Anex,

What SPL is required to induce vibration of any significance in a Mana stand?

I simply do not believe that the feedback loop you describe above exists in any meaningful way for any stand.

I contend that stands deal first & foremost with internally-generated vibrations coming from the equipment itself.
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I have no idea and no mana to test on, its pretty irrelavent to the argument anyway. You can believe the loop doesn't exist if you like but it does, you can hear air borne feed back in a tt easily enough, the stand isn't really any different.
Ok then, if you think its vibration from the equipment thats fine, but do I really have to copy the entire post out again and replace airborne vibrations with the internal vibrations I stated we were overlooking for the case of a simple example? Its all the same thing, like I've said numerous times, where the vibrations come from is entirely irrelavent, the fact they are there is the only thing that we are interested in here
 
Who said anything about changing the frequency response of just one?! Your just picking the bits out you like.
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You concede the washing machine analogy was bogus?
Now the needle is picking up the groove, plus the 1KHz spike generated by all the material resonances.
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You've made a thousand assumptions and not put any ballpark figures on the sizes of your 'vibrations'. Or the delay before they 'arrive'. Or shown any reason to believe there would be a correlation between the 'vibrations' and the signal. Or how this effect can be a general characteristic of Mana and yet not cause howl round, or manfestations thereof.

If Bub were to play pink noise from CD through his system at a normal listening level and records the output of his LP12 what sort of signal level would you expect? A theory needs to make predictions. This one is testable.

Paul
 
The washing machine analogy isn't bogus, its a demonstration of how placing a turntable on something that is vibrating alters the frequency response of the turntable. Whether you are looking at the huge vibrations of a washing machine or small vibrations in a system doesn't actually matter. I'm trying to simplify.

Course I've made assumptions, integrating that sort of maths would take forever. I'm also not going to make a computer model just to proove a point. Your arguments don't seem to be thought through, the vibrations depend on what the stand is made of, what the floor is made of, the position of the stand in relation to everything else, how loud your playing the speakers, how loud the motor/whatever is, how the room responds etc. etc. its completely dependant on individual situations but its always going to be there. What has arrival delay got to do with anything? I should imagine they'd arrive with a delay somewhat relating to the speed of sound, just as a guess. I didn't say it was a general characteristic of mana as you'd know if you'd read the thread, my entire argument is that the effects are there, to varying degrees, in anything you care to mention capable of transmitting vibrations. What exactly do you think the signal is?! That ones not even worth explaining. It doesn't cause howl around because your not talking about that level of energy but it is possible to do with a tt and hifi system. The fact its not howling doesn't mean its not happening. Why when you pluck an amplified guitar string does it not immediately howl around? Transduction efficiency perhaps?
I'm not making predictions like that, as I'm sure you know, your plainly trying to be difficult, I haven't seen or tested his kit. The effects don't have to be audible on their own to have an effect which you'd know if you understood interference.
 
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Paul Ranson said:
Only a broken, badly designed or badly installed one. Perhaps this is a clue?

Paul
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Put your stylus on the platter, switch to tt input and crank up, if you don't get howl you can probably get feedback by shouting at the stylus.
 
The washing machine analogy isn't bogus, its a demonstration of how placing a turntable on something that is vibrating alters the frequency response of the turntable.
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It's no such thing. It's a demonstration of adding two signals together, which does not change the frequency response of the turntable.

Course I've made assumptions, integrating that sort of maths would take forever.
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The problem is that you haven't made any assumptions. No computer models are required, just some educated guesswork. Sanity check your theory. You've decided what size of effect you need to have on the system as a whole, an audible frequency response error, probably one large enough to dominate room effects since some people claim to be able to hear it in arbitrary systems. Working out how big a disturbance is required at the stylus should follow, and that could be easily measured in the setup I proposed.

Put your stylus on the platter, switch to tt input and crank up, if you don't get howl you can probably get feedback by shouting at the stylus.
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Have you any experience at all of competent turntables? Whatever they're mounted on?

BTW what's your proposed mechanism for this feedback with a CDP as a source?

Paul
 
Penance, your constant pot shots at Paul are starting to get rather tedious now and Paul has, to his credit, completely ignored them so please just give it a rest.

Michael.
 
Paul, how do you explain the subjective impression that Mana alters the tonal balance of the electronics and transducers placed on it - after all you are eager to question. Do you have answers?
 
Paul Ranson said:
It's no such thing. It's a demonstration of adding two signals together, which does not change the frequency response of the turntable.


The problem is that you haven't made any assumptions. No computer models are required, just some educated guesswork. Sanity check your theory. You've decided what size of effect you need to have on the system as a whole, an audible frequency response error, probably one large enough to dominate room effects since some people claim to be able to hear it in arbitrary systems. Working out how big a disturbance is required at the stylus should follow, and that could be easily measured in the setup I proposed.


Have you any experience at all of competent turntables? Whatever they're mounted on?

BTW what's your proposed mechanism for this feedback with a CDP as a source?

Paul
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It changes the frequency response of what is output by the TT (dramatically), this is the point. I didn't put any kind of size on things, I said the effect is there and it means mana or anything else has an effect on the frequency response of a system.
Yes I have plenty of experience with turntables thankyou.
If the lense is moving (vibrating) differently to the disc it will have trouble focussing I guess but I've not really thought about it as CD players don't particularly interest me.

EDIT: I'm very dizzy from all these circular arguments so I really am done with this thread now, if you want to disprove my theory you do it, send me your findings if you like
 
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Paul Ranson said:
I cannot explain your subjective impressions, which do not agree with mine.

Paul
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So Paul, what are you hearing when using Mana?

Could I ask if your system can reproduce the bottom octave? If so, could you check by focusing on this with something with a large hall acoustic?
 
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I don't use Mana. I think stands are pretty much irrelevant, although LP12s on the floor like something reasonably light and rigid, I use an Audiotech or original Sound Org.

Paul
 
It changes the frequency response of what is output by the TT (dramatically), this is the point. I didn't put any kind of size on things,I said the effect is there and it means mana or anything else has an effect on the frequency response of a system.
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Well, 'dramatically' is a start.

Paul
 
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