30 years on...

It's not just noise Mana removes, it clearly attenuates what is there on more balanced supports.

Sadly, in the lack of any tests from the manufacturer or interested parties, it is difficult to prove this. Perhaps someone here could take up the baton?

 

I haven't heard your system without Mana, so I can't say anything about it.

I can say that I used to have a Mana Reference Table, and still own an (unused) custom amp stand. Both IMO did change the tonal balance compared to other stands (not current commercial products).

I quite liked the effect at the time, I have to say. My turntable and my then valve amps both seemed to benefit.

I have no opinion on multi-phase Mana.

 

No it doesn't.

Paul

 

I don't see that being implied anywhere. If it were, it would be bollox.

Michael.

 

It's your theory - therefore you have to prove it.

 

Why not? I have to say it seems odd that in your posts about my system, you've never mentioned any perceived oddities in the frequency response.

Why not? Is it because this alleged effect isn't present?

 

It's not a theory. It's a conclusion based on listening extensively to Mana supported systems and comparing them with others.

I don't have to prove anything. You are the one claiming Mana lowers the noise floor and doesn't alter the tonal balance.

 

Exactly - I'm claiming it doesn't do anything at all to the tonal balance - and that is why I have nothing to prove. It is, in fact, unprovable, since no-one can prove a negative (e.g. non-existence of God, etc).

The noise floor is lowered by reducing vibration - and that's a completely separate argument, nothing to do with the music signal.

 

What?! Who said anything about changing the frequency response of just one?! Your just picking the bits out you like. I've already stated the whole thing is a feedback loop. Think of a TT, nice and simple. Needle runs in groove, needle picks up variations in the groove as vibrations. Vibrations played thro speaker, travel thro air and into stand (this is entirely forgetting about any motor vibrations etc. seeings as we obviously need to keep this EXTREMELY simple). Stand resonates, we'll use one easy frequency so we all know where we stand (ha ha) 1KHz. Stand now contains original airborne vibrations with a hump at 1KHz (amplitude of hump varies according to material etc.). Vibrations travel through the stand, some up, some down, we'll just consider up, again for simplicity. The vibrations travel upwards into the TT, causing various parts of the deck to respond in sympathy, again altering the vibrations, perhaps for better, perhaps for worse, but eventually some of the vibrations end up in the record which, again, has its own resonant frequency somewhere but lets just assume the whole system resonates at our 1K. Now the needle is picking up the groove, plus the 1KHz spike generated by all the material resonances. Some people may like this (doubtful but you never know) in which case, its the right system/stand for them, most people would probably run a mile, in which case it is not. I hope this clarifies things.

Bub: passive or active it is the vibrations that matter, not where they come from, just where they are at the time. Not that it matters as your argument seems to be a continually evolving thing.

 

Its not unproveable at all. Get a speaker, mic, soundcard of known impulse response measured to the best possible accuracy, stand speaker on mana/whatever and retake impulse response. I can absolutely guarantee you will see a different response at the end. Compare it to a load of other stuff if you like, they'll all be different, none of them will give you perfect MLS back in again.

 

Thanks for that Anex - very concisely put.

I personally supsect that JW stumbled upon a combination that resulted in a sypathetic resonator suited to the excesses of the LP12 many years ago. Yes Bub, that IS a theory. A case of two wrongs making a right. Sadly I don't think one size fits all, and the affects on the tonal balance of other equipment is unpredictable, and in some cases, the Mana solution has no effect whatsoever (as I believe Fox discovered).

 

Anex,

What SPL is required to induce vibration of any significance in a Mana stand?

I simply do not believe that the feedback loop you describe above exists in any meaningful way for any stand.

I contend that stands deal first & foremost with internally-generated vibrations coming from the equipment itself.

 

excellent stuff

 

On what evidence is this contention made?

Using your own reasoning, when you make a cotention, it is up to you to provide some sort of factual evidence.

BTW
I have no belief/knowledge/opinion on the supposition.

 

It's based upon my own observations. I am a serial stand-fondler. You can learn a lot by just feeling with your fingertips.

God (hoho) gave us our very own "vibration sense", seems silly not to use it, and it's free.

I also possess a stethoscope, for some reason.

 

my god, you have golden fingers.
So by touch you can tell whether the vibration felt in the stand comes from the kit or is air/structural borne?

 

Yes, by the simple expedient of muting the speakers.

 

lol, ok

 

I've always thought it was funny that we have specific nerve fibres & CNS tracts exclusively devoted to "vibration sense". Clearly, God is a hi-fi geek.

 

Have you got this proof yet or should I come back tomorrow?