A case of miffed fish ?

It does seem to be a strange phenomenon of internet forums that certain topics inspire a form of fervent beliefs and heated arguments much more than most. As an example, if any of you have seen some of the subwoofer threads in the av forums, you'll know that Mana isn't alone! Some people do seem to take certain brands and their products very personally. I don't know why, but I do know it's not usually very productive for anyone, including the fervent believers.

Dunc

 

Tony, this is hardly something new, is it? That sort of thing had been going on long before I joined the various forums, and you know who were the main perpetrators.

The problem as I see it is that Mana elicits such passion amongst the people who use it that it's difficult for those who've experienced and enjoyed its significant benefits to comprehend or accept the (at times) blatant derision of Mana shown either by people who've unfortunately not managed to ensure it performed optimally (for one reason or another - and I don't mean through lack of dexterity), or those with no direct experience of Mana automatically dismissing it as a result of someone else's judgement criteria.

I have no problem with anyone who's tried Mana at home in their own system where it's been installed correctly by someone with the appropriate experience to ensure optimal set-up (I believe this is crucial), and still doesn't like what it does, but I do find it very difficult dealing with the kind of people I referred to in my previous paragraph. Perhaps I need to show more tolerance.

Hey, it wasn't you was it?

Only kidding! Tony, you will disagree with me, but it was fairly obvious 'Skivar' (whom you refer to) was someone very well known operating under a pseudonym. I'd bet my mortgage on it - that is if I had one...

As far as I know all genuine new members on the Mana forum are treated with the appropriate respect and receive knowledgeable and friendly advice without exception.

Tony, no offence, but from what I've seen, your forum is not entirely exempt from the odd 'personal squabble' or three, so let's leave it at that.

I couldn't agree more! But there are some people (on the Naim forum for example) who would definitely not agree with our viewpoint. I only care about what equipment improves my enjoyment of music, not the badge supporting it. In the case of stands, I've found that Mana comprehensively outperforms any other equipment support I've tried, and I have fairly extensive experience of many other brands; including your own current choice.

There are simply many more Mana users who frequent the various forums than those who like Spendor or Harbeth.

I agree. But I don't believe Mana is the only product where its users are guilty of such behaviour. Furthermore, speaking for myself, it's natural to endorse a product I believe in and to recommend it others in the hope they also get as much pleasure from it as I do.

Regards,
Marco.

 

garyi, have you ever thought of compiling your own dictionary? If so, please provide me with the first available copy. This should then give me a better than evens chance of deciphering your rather unique vocabulary

Thanks in advance.

Marco.

 

My comments were not aimed at you directly, apologies if it came over that way.

This is the kind of thing I'm on about – you are implying that because someone prefers another stand they can't set Mana up. This really annoys me. Mana is not that hard to set up, the instructions on in the faq on the forum are now quite well written. As long as you get all the nuts in the right place (i.e. understand which go above and which go below the frame), get everything levelled, ensure the levels are not under any torsional stress and ringing right and then just nip the nuts (it sounds like crap if over-tightened). That's it! Compared to tuning a snare drum or building a LP12 it's a piece of piss

If it would help dissipate this silly myth I will happily prove to anyone who lets me loose on an item of Mana that I am familiar with (i.e. a Ref Table or rack) that I can get it absolutely spot on. When I used Mana I had a few people who had previously hated it say it was the only time they had ever heard it sound good! I set a Ref table up for the first time over 15 years ago! Believe me, I got Mana to work as intended, I just found I far preferred a different presentation later. What the hell is wrong with that

Considering its size and the amount of traffic it gets by pretty well IMHO – there is probably one thread every three months that gives me a headache, just like the one that was the cause of this thread! pfm is usually pretty chilled out, which is exactly the way I like it.

Taking the Naim forum as an example there are far more Hutter users than Mana, yet they just don't kick off in the same way. On pfm I'd say things were pretty even numbers wise between the main players stand wise (Mana / Hutter / QS) and slightly less using Fraim or others. It really annoys me that stands can't be intelligently discussed – they are a very important part of getting a system to work, but there are no absolutes as to which will work best with a given room, system or listeners preference. There usually lies behind every absolute a lack of experience or knowledge!

Tony.

 

Nice one Marco, six scores in one post

Could you explain to a casual observer how this descended into another discussion about angles, iron, and it's digital protagonists

 

Oh look, more of the same ferrite spouting, and surprise, the same bunch, prehaps we should force them to reverse test the mana by removing one level at a time, and wondering at the jaw dropping improvements thus wrought

 

U mean watching it get better and better till final nirvana of hifi on the floor?


shit stirring, u WM?!?! never!

 

Or demonstrating with a sentence just how ridiculous the mana freaks sound :lol:

 

Definitions...

...notes from Garyi's dictionary:

Mortgage [Noun]

1. That which is paid off by a very successful, intelligent businessman by hard graft and general all-round fantasticness.

2. That which is paid off under no other circumstances whatsoever, no sir.

La Mort [Noun: French]

1. Death.

 

To Tony L

Tony, no apologies needed! It didn't come over that way at all, I was just pointing out the kind of thing you referred to has been going on for a long while, so its difficult to ascertain the (arguable) damage to Mana such behaviour has caused at any given time or by any particular individual(s).

I can see why you've interpreted it that way, but it's not what I meant. First of all, I don't think you fall into either of the categories I referred to in my earlier post. You've tried Mana at home in your own system, and have gained the necessary experience to set it up correctly. I'm referring to novices who are naturally only able to install Mana with limited knowledge and experience; hence mistakes are easily made.

The problem with novices setting up Mana correctly is that apart from the most basic instructions, there is no 'set' criteria to follow in order to ensure it performs as intended - and not everyone looks at the website. For example, how do you know (except through experience) how tight is too tight as far as the nuts on spikes are concerned, or the *right* note to listen for thus ensuring the glass is properly tuned?

As you know, get any of that remotely wrong, and the stand/soundstage or whatever will not perform correctly - indeed performance will be adversely affected, and will result in the kind of harsh, bright sound as so often is described. The glass/spikes issue is just one example, but there are also many other things that would be problematic for novices to get right first time.

Mistakes do happen, and the problem is inexperienced people *believe* Mana has been set up correctly, when in fact it hasn't, and then judge the results accordingly, forming inaccurate conclusions on that basis. This is why I feel that unless Mana is heard when correctly set up by someone with the necessary knowledge and experience to get it working at its best, definitive statements such as: "I don't like what Mana does", or the like, shouldn't really be made. Unfortunately, this is far from being the case.

Yeah, it's so simple...

Tony, do you realise how all that might sound to a complete Mana novice? Apart from the necessary ability to ensure this is all carried out accurately, will everyone have the patience to do it? Many people just can't be bothered to mess around when it comes to stands. Often what's wanted is something that simply requires levelling and leaving. With Mana, that's a recipe for sonic disaster. See my point?

Precisely. However, would you feel qualified to comment accurately on the sound of either of the above if a professional had tuned neither?

In my book: absolutely nothing. What I'm curious of, though, is who or what was responsible for your change of heart?

I thought that's what we were doing here? :MILD:

Tony, I really like that one!! Can I borrow it in future?

It applies especially to many of those in the anti-Mana camp

Regards,
Marco.

 

OH FFS

some people just dont know when to STFU!

 

Satan

Your shrink's got his work cut out this week

Keep taking the tablets o psychotic one.

Marco.

 

Arf!

Looking back, it appears Psycho Satan started it by mentioning E.E on the Mana forum.

Arf!

Marco.

 

The other problem is that on certain floor types it does not stay set up indefinitely – in one flat I had the floorboards were quite soft and the Mana would sink unevenly due to the gear not having even weight distribution (a 250 for instance has all the weight on the left hand side due to the transformer). It was very obvious sonically when it had 'gone off'. As a result I found I had to set it up fairly regularly in that room, though it got progerssively better as it sunk to its own level in the floor. My current room was far easier as it has a very flat hardwood floor and it stayed set.

There are plenty of posts on the Naim forum dating from around the time I changed, but I'll quickly summarise. I was getting to a point where I was listening to the system less than ever before, it sounded really good sonically (I never suffered from 'harsh Mana' as I could set it up!), but there was something very hard to define that was missing emotionally, and it seemed to choose records for me too much (i.e. certain things sounded excellent, other things simply didn't work). A good friend of mine (and ex-Mana owner) had always ruthlessly taken the piss out of my Mana and was certain that was the problem, I was predictably a bit defensive having spent a lot of money on it, but I agreed to take the Ref Table over to Audio Works in Cheadle and compare it to QS Ref, Hutter and Fraim. I personally set the Ref Table up so was confident it was working, certainly others who had been a little 'indoctrinated' were surprised that it sounded so good. Nether the less I found the QS Ref was far more to my taste and put back the things I felt were missing, so I sold the Mana and have been far happier with my system ever since.

My take on stands is that none of the ones I have heard do everything equally well, they all have strengths and weaknesses. Mana, Fraim, QS Ref and Hutter all have their own (remarkably strong) character and as such will each appeal to different listeners – I had simply bought the wrong stand for my priorities.

Tony.

PS If James wants to take the piss, yes it is all about the 'tune thing'

 

Re: Satan

Oh, I was merely pointing out that there is more than one way to end up without a mortgage - inheritance being one of them for instance.

The word is derived from mortuus (latin for death) and gage (hold, as in engage), hence 'held until death'. If you have a mortgage and die, the remainder of it will be paid off by the insurance.

Clear?

 

why not go on the mana forum and discuss this bollox instead of inflicting it on the rest of us, ban mana threads now well over due

 

They don't discuss Mana there any more, the Mana forum has become the electrified-fluffy-bunny forum.

 

Well James, may I make a suggestion, why not start your own angle iron appriecation forum, where you can clash over blown ego's & ringing techniquies and wow the forum with the skyscraper antics and Hard bleeding edge, note body & timing vacumus skills, I'm sure you'll find a niche' all you guys will be 'well at home with' Tone

 

Because I've given up that sort of thing Tony.

 

Re: To Tony L

If M*** is so hard to set up then how come this stuff is sold mail order to 'inexperienced consumers' rather than through licenced installers. What hope is there of anyone ever getting it 'just right' - and how would they know

As someone else very sensible said, you expect to put a stand together and then forget it while it just does its job. M*** sounds like too much hard work