A case of miffed fish ?

Oh no Chris, don't give them a reason to mention the unmentionable please!!!!

 

Tony L very nearly ended up wit my QS Ref stand as I was considering a straight swap for his Mana back then in 2001.

Having heard a few different Mana'd systems I got a feel for its sound, or should I say, an angle on its strengths and weaknesses, sonically. I certainly had no reason to believe that any of the Mana stacks I'd heard hadn't been optimally set up.

I decided to keep my QS Ref after all, and Tony's Mana ended up in Canada, iirc.

It was fortunate for all concerned that events unfolded as they did because QS later modified the Ref rack by cutting holes in the shelves. The modifiction was offered to all QS Ref customers at cost, and both Tony and I were able to take advantage of this offer as we had both purchased our QS Ref stands new.

 

I can confirm, after hearing the hutter (In a decent system yesterday), why would you want to use step ladder & loose half the music, and cost more, bit beyond me .

 

True. I find that on my suspended wooden floor, after the initial settlement period, the spikes need some readjusting, and then everything stays in tune indefinitely. Maybe that's another possible reason why novices might not get Mana to work first time? Also in my experience, 'live' sounding rooms, or rooms with problematic acoustics aren't particularly suited to Mana; it simply reveals the deficiencies. However, it can help reduce excess room bass resonance. In my opinion, a Mana support is simply a highly revealing 'tool' designed to optimise the performance of partnering equipment, and therefore correct set-up and tuning is absolutely essential.

Aha... it all makes perfect sense now! 'Course not, only kidding

Or rather your priorities were swiftly re-prioritised by Larry and the Cheadle non-ferrous crew?

Tony, let me assure you that last remark was very much tongue-in-cheek. You know I also like to take the piss

Yes, where does Larry keep his book on 'tune dems' these days?

Sorry, couldn't resist it again...

Tony, being serious for a moment, have you ever thought just how similar are our respective situations with Mana and QS Ref?

For example, I was once the QS Ref/MusicWorks 'weenie boy' fed the non-ferrous ethos of Acoustica, Audio Counsel, etc, by the likes of Larry and Geoff, and you were an angle-iron devotee enjoying Mana who dismissed as ridiculous such notions as the ferrous effect?

Now those roles are reversed, do you ever wonder why what you're experiencing now is almost a carbon copy of what I experienced before?

Regards,
Marco.

 

Re: Re: To Tony L

Good point, and I've mentioned this before. I have my own ideas on the subject, but I'm not about to tell JW how to run his business! Incidentally, it's only hard to set up if you don't have the right 'tools' for the job: namely the appropriate knowledge and experience.

It's like trying to make genuine Lasagne without a tried and trusted recipe

That's why, in the ideal world, I think Mana should only be installed professionally via a network of trained and (trustworthy) dealers (or?). But that's easier said than done...

Since when do the best things in life come easy?

Seriously, though, whatever professional is employed to do the job should treat the installation of Mana in the same way as the installation of equipment. For example, if you buy some new Naim gear through a dealer, you expect the dealer to deliver and set it up correctly as part of the service, therefore the customer doesn't have to worry about such things. In my scenario, said dealer (or?) would install Mana stands along with the Naim gear (or whatever other make of kit). Job done, kick back, play some music… :MILD:

Marco.

 

I don't see a problem with discussions like this in threads like this - after all, no one's forcing anybody to read the threads, and some people, myself included, might find them mildly interesting... The thing that should be avoided, though, is this sort of exchange hijacking other, perfectly good, threads (like a certain someone's thread on decent secondhand speakers for £6-700....... :JOEL: )

Dunc

 

Good point, Dunc. It's all good harmless fun. Sadly, Tony doesn't seem to want to play anymore

C'mon, Tony, just when I was getting to the good bit...

It's your ball now.

Marco.

 

Re: Re: Satan

It was crystal clear the first time James. Repeating it again doesn't make your assertion any less factually incorrect than before

The reason I made the quip was to indicate your propensity to arrive at the preposterous.

Besides, what difference does it make how one arrives at a particular situation? It's the end result that counts :MILD:

Marco.

 

Lordy, can't a bloke take a break to eat dinner and watch the Channel 4 news anymore…

I found the parallels between our two paths quite funny; we both started in exactly the wrong place and had to buy twice – shame it didn't happen at the same time as we could have just swapped bloody stands! Conclusive proof it's simply question of personal priorities.

I never actually considered that I fully 'bought into' either camp – there are things I have learnt from JW etc and things that I have learnt from Larry / Dave etc, equally there are things in both camps that don't work for me (as an example you will never catch me ditching vinyl for CD the way many of the Cheadle crowd have…). I've always done my own thing, I certainly run a very different system to the others from Cheadle, though I'm always looking to learn more wherever I can.

I'm really content with the system at the moment - on vinyl it sounds the way I want it to, CD is still a compromise until I can afford a decent player (I'm slumming it with a Marantz DVD at the moment), but I only tend to use CD for background muzak anyway. The Densen / Harbeth combo is astoundingly good for the dosh.

Tony.

 

So it's not suited to most British living rooms then

 

When you have a good vinyl front-end, CD is always going to be a little disappointing in comparison.

'No-mortgage' balloon burst...

 

It disappoints but hardly surprises me to learn that you can do any kind of shit with JW and get forgiven within 24hrs so long as you love the product. Say one word against the dreaded angle-iron and you're on the knee-capping list for ever. Oh well.

Alex

 

I have to say I was appalled at your fate, Alex. Marco has nine lives.

 

Soreee... did you have anything nice?

Yeah, too true, but I was a jammy bugger, and thanks to a very nice man, I got my first bit of Mana in a direct swap for my QS Ref

To be honest, Tony, I don't think there's much to 'buy into' with Mana. JW doesn't preach any kind of philosophy, he just thinks his stands are the best, and after trying them, many of people happen to agree. I don't think you can necessarily say the same about the other camp. When I was 'in there', so to speak, the whole non-ferrous ethos was rammed home at almost every opportunity. Don't get me wrong, Larry, Dave, etc, are nice enough guys, but I sometimes wonder if there is some other agenda behind them advocating their particular approach. After all, everyone has to make a living.

Tony, can I be frank with you?

When you said you took your kit to AudioWorks and you left convinced QS Ref was better, in all honesty, I thought to myself: "Larry's done a number on him" - believe me, I've been there before, so I know pretty much exactly what will have happened. For instance, did you get the ol' empty Mana rack placed next to the QS Ref demo?

Now, before you tell me I'm fantasising, and you made the decision yourself- no one else - I know their methods, and equally, I know how 'convincing' they can be, so all I'm doing is suggesting that it's a possibility. I'm not saying this is what definitely happened, I'd like to make that absolutely clear!

I know you're not the sort to make that kind of decision easily, and no doubt you thought long and hard about it before ditching your Mana, but all I'm saying is it's very easy to be influenced by others when you respect their opinion and greater experience. I know because it happened to me.

One thing that makes me deeply suspicious about the approach of the 'other camp' is the shenanigans that go on at demos of the MusicWorks block & leads. Have you ever been to one of the hi-fi shows where these are being demonstrated? It always has me in fits of hysterics! For instance, who is that ridiculous little man that appears comatose when Naim leads are being used with music, and then jumps about like a demented chicken when the MusicWorks leads and block replace the Naim leads?

My mate and me had to walk out the last time, because we couldn't take it anymore...

Why is that do you think? I find it all rather bizarre... including the mass abandonment of Naim gear for Accuphase and Spectral all of a sudden when Larry lost his Naim account.

I know all this is cloaked in controversy, but one can't help being somewhat suspicious...

Regards,
Marco.

 

Nah, don't think so, old son. I'm just wondering why the concern about such things? You come across as somewhat jealous

Marco.

P.S When you get a decent mains set-up, you'll hear what your CDS2 is really capable of and realise why I don't fret over LP12s

 

Yes Marco, I'm insanely jealous: Chester is my home town and we Cestrians always looked towards Wrexham with ill-disguised envy.

 

I'm incredibly sceptical of any kind of sales pitch. I do however consider myself open minded enough to try new things, and the dem in Cheadle only convinced me that I needed to try the QS Ref quietly on my own at home, which is exactly what I did.

This may make me sound a bit arrogant (which is not the intention), but the only person's experience I will put any money on is my own. I approach people who are considered guru's in the industry such as certain reviewers, dealers and the people behind certain manufacturers with a degree of both curiosity and scepticism. I will happily listen to anything and am eager to learn, but I will then form my own opinion – I've been farting about with audio for 25 years now, I learnt to ignore the snake oil decades ago.

With regards to the Cheadle crowd: I am good friends with them and very much enjoy going across for a pint and a curry now and again, but I don't share all their views as my own system will clearly testify (they do not stock any audio component that I use with the exception of the QS Ref and mains block).

I think the loyalty of Larry's customers surprised everyone, especially Naim and The Audio Counsel! I know many of them and they are genuinely delighted with the Accuphase stuff – Dave C's system as an example sounds truly excellent (it would sound even better with a record deck though ).

Tony.

 

Yes, James, but Glasgow is where you live now... in a mortgaged tenement flat in the west end

So, do me a favour: dry your eyes and leave the nostalgia where it belongs. Why act like a snob when you no longer possess the necessary accoutrements?

Incidentally, anyone who keeps banging on about mortgages, etc, like you have on this thread is quite obviously nothing but insanely jealous, so if I were you, I'd quit before you end up making yourself look even more ridiculous...

Love and kisses,
Marco.

 

Marco,

I find this fascinating and highly relevant to audio discussions. Will you please post complete financial statements of both yourself and Mr Devil so we can determine once and for all which of you has the better system, and who knows more about audio?

Thanks.

 

Marcus, satire becomes you sir