active vibration management

Sm - any idea which of the other brinkmann decks he tried? The brinkmann lagrange - if anything - favours rock and dance. However this will depend on arm and cartridge. What does bcd stand for?

Zanash - lamination can effect resonance if alternating layers have different properties or alignment. Walrus also recommend slate above granite and marble. I will ask them why next time I get a chance.

 

All I know was it was the top of the range one, I believe they do a model at about $12K without arm. As the importer arranged for the dem, I suspect it was using their arm and cart. To all intents and purposes, in his system and to his ears, the SME blew it away.

No idea what BCD stands for sorry.

 

Thanks! Thats likely to be the balance then which is their most expensive model but alledgedly not as good as the lagrange - it is still manufactured as the US market prefers its look apparently so it sells better. I should be hearing it in the next few months, along with the new oasis model. I have compared the lagrange with the sme decks (10/20/30) and found exactly the opposite - bizarrely for the same reason. I found the BL was much better at rock and dance. Hence my query about the arm and cartridge. The only other thing I can suggest is that the brinkmann deck was demmed on a standard table without passive or active air suspension a la vibraplane or TSS. That would certainly account for the difference. I heard a similiar story from another guy in the states comparing the balance with the sme 30 - again that was without air suspension and he preferred the 30, it may even be the same dealer as I think there is only one. Sometimes they put them on the HRS but its not really the same. Air or active suspension is essential hence my posting this discussion in the first place to see if even better isolation that the TSS would have much effect.

 

The SME's have suspension. I'd be very surprised if an optimally set up Brinkmann got near an optimally set up SME 30 in absolute terms, but of course, these things are very subjective.

When choosing a deck, I ruled the Brinkmann and Yorke out very early on, simply because the sound produced changes so radically depending on what they are sitting on. IMO you are hearing far too much influence from the support.

 

Walrus sell both the sme 30 and the brinkmann lagrange. They told me that 50% of their sales of the BL are sme 30 and 20 owners trading in or people coming in for the sme30 and leaving with the BL (this was a long time after buying the BL so they had no motive), so they must be in the same ball park and this ties in with my own listening experience. However I would expect the suspended sme 30 on a normal table to beat a lagrange on a normal table from what I have heard of the two decks and the effect of using the TSS. The BL was designed with this kind of isolation in mind so it is not really a "choice".

Yes the BL and yorke are very sensitive to the support but that doesnt mean that if this issue is addressed then it continues to be a problem. On the tss the brinkmann is just in another league. On a normal table the Brinkmann sounds like a £2k deck and not a £10k deck - its a profound change. The sme may be support insensitive but that very suspension while isolating may also be limiting performance in a way that the BL overcomes just with a bit more effort. The sme30 is an exceptional deck but their is no fundamental reason why it cant be beaten.

My friend owns a yorke series 8 - whichis a suspended series 7 I guess. It sounds very good and can work on a normal table however it cant match the s7 on air suspension.

Interesting discussion anyway! As you say - all totally subjective, and also subject to different tastes in music as well. I am certainly not dissing sme equipment - I used to own a series 5 tonearm ;-) They make great kit.

 

I find it almost inconceivable that some cheeky person could prefer an SME to a Brinkmann. What is the world coming to?

 

I would take what Walrus say with a pinch of salt. They have excluse UK rights to the Brinkmann AFAIK. This is not the case with SME. The SME margins are also famously low.

It amazes me personally that people spend £10K on a product that requires considerable further investment to get anywhere near optimal performance. Even then, without testing every option out there, how does one know if the isolation product selected is not in fact colouring the sound in a manner the designer did not intend.

In that respect, the simplicity and reliability of a suspended sub chassis arrangement is attractive. I look forward to hearing one of the Brinkmanns optimally set up.

 

True, good point about walrus - however my own listening backed it up. I think walrus are a good bunch of guys however and they had nothing to gain at this point.

The townshend only cost me £500 and I needed a table anyway - my previous system having been nicked. Some people spend more than that on cables. The TSS worked in the shop and it seemed a good idea and I had previously seen good isolation measurements. Brinkmann also said that it worked well with his deck when i emailed him. Obviously now I am looking at better options.

I havent heard the vpi but I have heard the sme 30 and avid acutus. I preferred the avid to the sme but it didnt have the ability on female vocals of the brinkmann.

The brinkmann deck, arm, cartridge and support would be £10.5K list. Quite a bit less than the sme30 with a cartridge and a table. The top avid wouldnt be much less.

I agree elegant simplicity is a good idea always - both sme and the BL have it but they have taken different approaches. They both look very "zen" to me.

 

yeah, the Simon yorke comes with a slate plinth, why would you need anything else for it, I'm with stereo mic on this one, if the deck is good enough (and around £10k it ought to be) it shouldn't need fiddling with £500 metal an innertube snake oil.

 

Explain why pneumatic suspension is snake oil?

 

It doesn't work (IMO, IME, IM everything else).

 

The BL is a non-suspended deck designed to be used with external air or active isolation, as recommended by brinkmann. Yes the simon yorke comes with a slate plinth - all his decks do, even my friends S8 which has a suspension. However the S7 is recommended to be mounted on the slate plinth and then on a vibraplane. The s8 is an s7 designed with a suspension to avoid the use of a vibraplane for customers that preferred not to use it. No snake oil - its sound engineering sense wrt the motor and rigidity of reference to the platter and cartridge. SEMs dont come with isolation yet they require it - does that mean they are not properly designed? If it is designed to use external isolation then that fact is part of the functional design of the deck.

 

it's not strictly, and have heard it's effects (not good IME) the snake oil refers to the prices, tis not worth the asking price IMHO, same can be done DIY for £30, even taking normal commercial considerations it's not worth the money

 

beat me to it ...............even a halfilled 12" inner tube works!

 

then why don't they supply or offer to supply the aforementioned isolation, TBH i reckon it's fashion again, similar to multi binding posts on speakers, If I was spending £10k on a deck, I'd want it to work optimally as it was supplied, if you have to add other things then the design is compromised, you don't buy your car with just the metal rims, and then have to source tyres for it they put tyres on for you, you could drive your car on just the rims, but it would be compromised, they designed it for using tyres and as such they supply them,should be the same with brinkmans and the like.

 

Air suspension works for non-suspended decks like the brinkmann and the yorke by design. It will probably make no difference or even make problems with suspended decks or other components. In fact I doubt tables have much effect on anything bar decks and microphonic valves. That doesnt undermine its validity for non-suspended decks however. I got the townshend as part of the deal on the vinyl front end therefore the cost was not exhorbitant considering what people pay for tables normally and I didnt want something that looked like a car crash and might end up being flaky with £10Ks worth of 50kg turntable on it ;-). If it works it isnt snake oil - though you can dispute the cost. DIY is always cheaper. I have a diy phono stage - does that mean all commercial phono stages are snake oil?

 

Nick, my comment is about the cost, I do understand that commercial considerations put costs above mere compnent prices, but Maxy boy is taking the piss with his prices, the stuff has 3 components, two metal trays and an inner tube, phono stage is a lot more involved in build and skill required.

 

Ak

They do. Both yorke and brinkmann will supply an isolation solution at additional cost. Or the distributor will.

Its not a fashion if the deck is designed to work this way and there are good engineering reasons - which there are. Turntable manufacturers dont make their own active isolation platforms for the same reasons Morgan dont supply Morgan tyres with their cars. They either supply a third partys tyres or you choose your own!

Nick.

 

I think vibration isolation is useful for everything because of the plug/socket interface.

 

Ak - yes the markup is huge but thats true of all hifi. The majority of the hifi industry is no different to max. Many are worse (Nordost, mana, naim, certain turntables etc). Which is why I have gone diy and why I dont regard the commercial phono as being any different to the TSS. Most commercial phonos arent novel designs anyway.

Something like an active isolation system costs about £600-£1000 on ebay which looks like a bargain given the relative costs and the extra performance. Vibraplanes are just a SEM isolation system but bumped up by a factor of 5 for the hifi market over the science market cost - which is why I am looking for ex-lab kit.