An open post to the forum's Naim representatives

Merlin

Robbo will be visiting me at some later date.

Mick

 

mike,
americans are megalomaniacs so if they are offered one amp that gives them a killowatt of shoddy sound over 70 watts of good sound then 99% of them will take the killowatt no matter how it sounds. most of the negative comments about naims flagship amps in this thread have been about its 'limp writsed' power output. i would have thought that those here could have risen above judging an amp purely on it's power output however it seems not. Naim kit does certain things very well, it presents the music in a certain way which pushes some peoples buttons.
at the end of the day though, as long as naim make enough money to stay around and keep designing and supporting their killer (imho) kit then who cares if they've penetrated the american market or not.
by the way you mention that they have a considerable marketing spend in the U.S. perhaps you'd like to share what that is? as i've never seen even 1 US advert for naim in stereopile.
cheers


julian

 

I suspect a lot of the raised hackles surrounding Naim (pro or con) specifically, and hifi generally, has to do with simple wording. People have a nasty habit of expressing their personal opinions as fact - e.g. "Naim kit is shite". Almost always, such statements are meant as statements of opinion ("to my tastes Naim kit is shite"), but the opinion bit just gets left out - due to the ravages of laziness, perhaps, or carelessness, or simply for effect. All it takes is a bit of careless opinion-as-fact spewage to get people's blood boiling, an indignant retort, and then there's no accounting for the sort of bile that comes out of people's keyboards.

Well, that's my theory anyway.

In any case, the solution is simple: make sure that you take any statement as pure opinion unless backed up by cold, hard evidence (something you don't often see on web fora...)

Of course, occasionally people intend to be controversial - or worse, flame-bait - but that's all well and good (after all, we need a little heated name-calling on the boards or it wouldn't be much fun at all), as long as it's not too frequent.

Anyway, yeah, that's my take on it. So, everybody take a chill pill, pop your favourite disc of joy in your favourite disc-of-joy-spinner and enjoy.

Dunc

 

Hi, Merlin, I've just read this thread and I wonder whether we need a sense of balance - as Ian says, it doesn't matter.

I have never heard Naim equipment. This is not through any deliberate decision to avoid it, but there never was any available when I wanted to buy new stuff, and as I am notoriously undiscriminating (some would probably say lacking in taste and/or hearing!), I bought what pleased my ears and lived happily with it. I'm sure it can be bettered, but I really don't care - as I've said before, the idea is that the equipment plays, not I.

I'm sure that Naim is excellent and I'm sure that if I heard it I'd like it. So what, if some of its aficionados are a mite overenthusiastic? Let 'em, I say, it takes all sorts. Some folk take such overenthusiasm as an attack on their own taste and choice, as if the aficionados were saying personally to them, "Aha, but you could have done sooooo much better, if only you'd..." To someone who sees him- or herself as knowledgeable in the field of hi-fi and as having made informed choices, this may seem like an assault on his/her (wo)manhood. Are you sure you're not unconsciously doing this?

You will also be aware that there are certain varieties of equipment support, whose enthusiasts attribute to them almost supernatural powers. Having tried it and having regretfully had no revelations from on high, I happen to disagree with them. But, hey, if they think it and it makes them happy and they want to spread the gospel, does it really matter? You don't have to agree with them, and anyone who is interested will soon find that there are alternatives - as will prospective Naim customers.

So, as Clark said to Vivienne in the last reel of "Gone with the wind"...

 

What a load of xenophobic bunk... I'll have you know that we have a large collection tweako cultist lunatics screwing around with 1watt tube amps..

Power ouput is important. Particularly, if you have a large room to fill and you want bass... Again, there are frequent discussions about what speakers are a good match for naim, and typically the power hungry speakers are a non-starter.

Given that speakers dominate the the sound, speakers should be the guiding consideration in choosing a system, so why have the amplifiers ability limit the choice?

Sure they advertise every once in a while. Stereophile October 2002 pg 86 for instance. [I kept a copy of their recommended components issue to laugh at ]

 

On Naim...

On Naim:

The key to Naim has taken me a number of years to get a handle on. It's not about power - there are considerably more powerful amps available for less money, but then a 250 will drive my speakers to ridiculous levels without noticeable strain so I don't give two hoots about having more power. It's not about detail - again, there are more detailed offerings out there. It's not even about speed or dynamics, as again it's possible to buy better for less.

What Naim is about, as far as I can tell from having owned and hear a great number of competing brands, is unifying all of the above into a cohesive and believable whole. I call it musical. Not over-emphasising or trying too hard. It's a sound which appeals to the music lover rather than the gear head (though there are plenty gear heads amongst their ranks). It's fussy, a bit demanding of setup and ugly - even in its current incarnation. However, I can't criticise it for being ugly in light of what I used to own (a DNM setup).

I can only really speak on behalf of music lovers, as though I have had more than my fair share of hifi, I find it pretty uninteresting stuff and other than wanting to eek the most out of what I have, it's just furniture and appliances like most other things in the home.

Not to pick on them unnecessarily, the fact that I've tried the Sim Audio kit at home and remained unimpressed suggests that it's just another system, in the way most hifi is pleasant plinky plink and lah di dah. Naim doesn't really do this, and I have no idea why. Even my beloved DNM, which outpaces Naim, had the occasional tendency to distract me from the music with thoughts of 'did you hear the creak on the seat of Blind Man Bob when he strummed that last chord?' when in fact none of that matters. What I heard with the DNM I still hear with the Naim - I've side-stepped at a level whereby I don't really trade off much of the round-earth stuff, but for some reason when I hear little secondary nuances and details like that, they don't distract - in fact, the are cohesive within the context of the overall musical piece. I've not heard any other kit that achieves this so easily.

It is ever-so easy for any of us to criticise Naim on an individual-characteristic basis. If you name an specific aspect of musical sound (e.g. bass depth), I can name a system which can do it better. However, what Naim achieves is equivalent to what a good chef achieves - they can turn ordinary or unspectacular ingredients into something special. Comparing a top chef to myself - even if you gave me the finest ingredients in the world and the top chef had the leftovers from Tesco on a busy day, I guarantee that the top chef would create the better dish.

And such it is with Naim. It's the combination and balance of all of these ingredients to create a fine musical 'dish'. Sim Audio, Wadia, you name them - they all may use often better ingredients, but the 'dish' they create isn't satisfying or cohesive to my ears.

In a nutshell: the beauty of Naim is in the balance of the component parts and a synergy between them, not on any one thing. Which is probably why I have only heard three or four decent Naim systems in my life, as poor setup easily throws the balance out and you end up with something that's no better than other hifi.

Biased? Not really. I was the last person anyone expected to defect to Naim...

On the Sim Audio kit:

Except for me. I found it a bit uninspiring. I know the UK importers very well and they have offered tempting deals on a couple of occasions, but to my ears offerings like the Naim, DNM and similar amps offer a more musical perspective without getting too worried about detail. The Moon Eclipse was a decent £2000 player, priced at £5500. They offered me the chance to buy it for £3000 and I passed*. My opinion and nothing more.

* I bought a Resolution Audio Opus 21. It's that very rare beastie - a giant-killing cd player that betters players twice or three times its price (including the Eclipse by some margin - not in detail, but in fun, musical integrity and general cohesiveness). So that's whay I bought. No regrets whatsoever...

OK, I've said enough...

jtc

 

I've spent a bit of time over on the Naim forums so I'd like to chip in here.

I've nothing against Naim – in fact I've been considering their AV2 processor recently. To go with that I'd probably use their amps (NAPV175/NAP150 etc) as this seems to make sense for ease of connectivity and, from what I understand, sound quality issues i.e. Naim pre's work best with Naim power amps.

This I'm all willing to accept and I even understand people wanting Naim CD players, power supplies etc – the sound, connectivity and looks all back this up.

So far so good but then we get on to speakers – I'm not sure there are any/many reasons why people with Naim electronics should consider Naim speakers over any other makes and yet, more often than not, this is the strong recommendation over on the Naim forums (certainly from what I've seen). Okay, I'm sure their speakers are very nice and should be auditioned, but there are loads of alternatives that should be checked out.

What I do find really odd though is when the subject moves on to subwoofers. They are a dirty word to a number of people over there but there are a surprising number of them are interested in exploring what a sub could do for their systems.

Fair enough but what is there excuse for not investigating subs right away? They are waiting for Naim to bring out a subwoofer! WHY for heaven's sake? There are specialist subwoofer companies around (REL, Velodyne etc) who have been building great subs for 20 odd years – the chances of Naim building a better sub than these companies can offer, and producing it for less money is slim to say the least.

Brand loyalty is one thing but if there was ever one component it doesn't apply to it is subwoofers – pick the one that sounds best in your room, regardless of who makes it.

Matt.

 

dat,
there is an apocryphal story about the first use of a turbo charger in an nhra race. it goes that the guy with a small capacity turbo engine was laughed at by those running large capacity monsters up until the point that the turbo car handed them their ass (or arse if you're british) such was the bitching and moaning by the 'ain;t no substitute for cubes' brigade that even though there was no official rule to ban the turbo car one was made up on the spot and the turbo car was banned.

ok so were back to the dark days of all amps sound the same then? most big power amps have multiple pairs of output transistors if these aren't matched very carefully then you get all sorts of awful crossover distortions. if you buy a cheap gigawatt amp then the most likely place costs will be cut will be on matching the transistors, another thing you need is a stiff power supply which isn;t just a matter of a big toroid and some caps. not many amps power supplies are regulated and those that are, are usually expensive.

finally an occasional advert in stereopile (so occasional that i've missed them all) is hardly the 'substantial marketing spend' that mike put forward.

honestly dat i couldn't really care less about the 'room filling' abilities of naims amps in an american context, i don;t live there. my real question about naims distribution strategy is why they aren;t cashing in on the asian love of anything with a long history. look at how big tannoys, quads and other 'historic' brands sell in japan, hk and singapore. aparently there is no distribution in japan although i believe there is one in singapore. this is what should be being addressed imhuo. still as i said so long as they're in making enough to stick around i don;t really care.
cheers


julian

 

Merlin

Please don't take this the wrong way, but having read your opening post thoroughly, I cannot help but come to the conclusion it smacks of someone with an axe to grind.

Is there an unresolved issue with Naim left over from your time as a dealer?

Because, if not, clearly, you have an unhealthy bias.

Is it that Moon stuff you use? Sorry, but I heard it once (CDP/Pre/Power combo) at one of the hi-fi shows in conjunction with big JM Lab floorstanders, and the overall sound wasn't exactly awe-inspiring. Of course, that could have been down to a number of factors, although I had heard the JM LABs before on numerous occasions with Accuphase/Spectral, and Naim gear, and liked the sound very much...

Marco.

 

Totally off topic, Julian, but if it's the same story I know, it's not apocryphal, but one detail is wrong - it wasn't a turbocharger but a gas turbine, as in jet, engine. The formula had been (and remains) 4.2L naturally aspirated and 2.8L super/turbocharged. Gas turbines had been allowed, subject to a restriction on intake area. The arrival of the Paxton Turbine Car in the 1960s showed everyone just how far gas turbine engines had come, when it broke down when leading the Indy 500, with veteran Parnelli Jones on board.

The following year, Lotus entered turbine cars and again one would have won, except for a freak - in a period of running under the yellow lights, the engine heated up and when the lights went off and the driver Joe Leonard pressed the loud pedal, the engine shaft sheared. This was because it was a phosphor-bronze shaft deliberately designed to do this, rather than let the engine catch fire. Colin Chapman of Lotus had wanted stainless steel, but the engine manufacturers refused, fire being anathema to an aircraft engineer.

The authorities took fright at these two near-wins and operated the age-old formula "if you can't beat it, ban it". They introduced a vastly reduced intake area, ensuring that a gas turbine engine was no longer competitive, and they've never been seen again.

 

I've never heard a Naim speaker that didn't sound dreadful to me (I haven't heard all of the range, however), but I'm not surprised owners of Naim electronics are strongly inclined to favour Naim speakers over others, and I'm even less surprised that they are strongly recommended on the Naim forum, which is a gathering of people who mostly have Naim gear.

I think Naim are planning to release their own sub, so maybe some of the anti-sub brigade will have an epiphany. In any event, I'm still not convinced any of this matters. If other people don't like subs, even if they have no good reason for their opinion, so what?

-- Ian (who mostly doesn't like subs, as it happens)

 

In my experience (Naim amplifier owner since 1989) Naim make some very good preamps, and in particular phono stages; CD players; and some of their old power amps (NAP 140 in particular) are good too, so long as you don't need very high volume and have sensitive speakers in a smallish room.

The Aro is very good, and I gather that the tuners are good too (never heard).

Good second-hand value, and excellent service back-up.

Naim speakers are just plain awful, always have been IMO. I'm not at all impressed with the Fraim, and they have recently attempted to follow Linn down the very overpriced component route - NAC 552, and, rumour has it, a new top CD player at a five figure price. Come to think of it, the CDS2 which I bought was well-overpriced. High-end CD players sound more similar to each other than different, and over £500 or so these differences start to become very subtle.

They have also started playing 'the cable game' with different-coloured (more expensive) SNAICS (interconnects) and the new Burndies: none of which make any audible difference AFAICT.

So a bit of a curate's egg: good in parts.

 

Excellent post Bub,

Tony pointed out that if you buy say a secondhand 62, 72 Hicap 140, 250 there is every chance that you will sell it at a profit in a few years if you wish to change. In the interim you get a damn good amp to use effectively free. That is surely a fair enough buying decision.

In my case I changed from Naim to Densen, several friends preferred the Naim, my partner and myself as well as our daughter preferred the Densen. Choice of music or source would probably sway the decision one way or the other anyway.

I think in general enthusiasm is a wonderful thing, if it doesn't descend to fundamentalism. Just to show how different we all are, every pair of JM labs speakers I have heard has left me cold. I'm sure the fault lies in me but I was once very relieved when a pair of Utopias were replaced by Rega Kytes. For me things just seemed to rock better.

 

tones,
I was actually referring to the american drag racing series (i think it's the nhra - but i could be mistaken) not cart. also not so off topic as the 'little' nap 500 was being put down due to it's aparent lack of 'cubes' probably without those doing the putting having experienced it.

as to which equipment is best i think the conclustion to be drawn here is - if you've owned it then it's blindingly out of this world and if you haven;t it's at best dubious - as it is with most things we like to defend our purchases.

cheers


julian

 

No, I meant mine was off topic, Julian, not yours. I know little about drag racing (except that the name describes it perfectly) - in which case the story you heard is indeed probably apocryphal as those guys use (and have since time immemorial) not only huge V8s, but also Roots blowers and nitromethane fuel.

 

He he he - he he he he he....

Sorry - just remembering those SL2s I heard - they were bloody awful! I've also heard Alaes (ok), Intros (yuk!) and SBLs (not bad at all). These were all in shows/shops eg probably not representative, but the SL2s and Alaes might as well have only had the tweeters connected for all the bass coming out (and this is from a Rega Ela 1/NAIT3 owner - so I hardly have seismic bass myself ).

I'd love to hear DBLs one day, and a colleague I used to work with had Credos on the back of a Rega Elicit/Planet that were supposed to sound good.

But yeah - NAP500/NAC552/CD???(when it comes out) are silly money - but I bet the Naim'll sound better than the Linn CD12. Where's my slippers, Nitol and hottie???

 

Agree totally - it is the Naim owners who are interested in subs that I was on about. They are presently saying "all I have to do is wait for Naim to release a sub" - the answer to which is - "don't be so daft, there are loads of great subs about already (and there's no need to stick with Naim) so get out there and start investigating/demoing".

Matt.

 

tones,
oops sorry. it's just this thread has my hackles up... i'll leave it now.
cheers


julian

 

Sorry Julian, I just felt it was worth airing, and in my opinion, it has produced some of the most lucid descriptions of the pleasures of owning Naim kit I have seen, in particular JTC's comments.

FWIW, I did hear a Naim setup once that I really liked (CDX2/XPS2/252/Supercap/300 all on Hutter with Dynaudio 3.4 speakers) It was only the cost that made me put my chequebook away (about £22K )

 

Cost is very much a factor, especially if you have a large room.