....and throw away the key
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3DSonics
away working hard on "it"
Hi,
BUT I DO accept the most obvious explanation (that is, there is a difference). :MILD:
It seems you must however construct all sorts of complications and contentions to avoid accepting the most obvious and simple explanation.
Ciao T
wolfgang said:
BUT I DO accept the most obvious explanation (that is, there is a difference). :MILD:
It seems you must however construct all sorts of complications and contentions to avoid accepting the most obvious and simple explanation.
Ciao T
Assuredly not an attempt to lampoon and I can empathise with irritation felt by failing to comprehend the means or mechanism that causes something to happen where one thinks that mechanism to be real-world e.g would happen independently of cognitive experience rather than being the sole product of it.
How can an intelligent and rational individual (that I assume you are T) conclude crystals, felt dots and chess pieces have real-world mechanisms sufficient to manifest effect? Their effect for you of course is not disputed.
Theory suggests crystals, felt dots and chess pieces may have some effect on or over resonance of one sort or another - possibly in some beneficial way. Theory suggests a lot of things. Theory suggests that if I wrapped my head in tin-foil while listening to my hi-fi there may be some beneficial effect as a result of reduction of nearby radiated EMI.
Isn't the most coherent theory for the efficacy of crystals, felt dots and chess pieces the human psyche? In my opinion it is of course ââ'¬â€œ belief is an excellent upgrade and in some respects I'm at a distinct disadvantage because of this.
3DSonics
away working hard on "it"
Hi,
Empirical observation. The Felt dots BTW had a certain measurable effect on RT60, not large but repeatable.
Crystals do have interesting properties. I use them according to principles of Feng Shui where they are said to counter "negative energies" emanating from technical devices, in western lingo we would call it "Electro Smog". I remain baffled by them but found them subjectively and both at work and home to seem an effect. Fry me, I really do not understand, but it appears to be working.
BTW, Crystals as such do not change the sound.
The chinese chess pieces are largely an affection, I include them allways as "closed minded foolsbait".
As for harmonica plates, I'd prefer to hange a violin, a viola da gamba and maybe an acoustical guitar across my front wall, but I'd have to endlessly tune them and I lack the space. Harmonic plates work easier and they do so by symathetic and harmonic resonce (obviously).
For Belts devices I am again extremely stumped and sceptical, that is one of the reasons why I declined to write about them (which seems to have rescued me unwittingly from being "Randi Challenged", well at least not by anyone by my wife).
Trust me, I am rather sceptical of things, though more in Humean/Kantean line than that of Randi, CISCOP, Self and other selfappointed guardians of orthodoxy.
It is by far the easiest "cop out" theory, so you do not have to face up to the actual hguge gaps of uncertainties, assumptions and occams razor violating suppositions we currently call science. It is comforting to think we have it all figured out, or if not all, then at least all that matters. This tendency to internalise the issues (it is all delusion) is an expression of that. It does not make that theory coherent though. It merely makes it acceptable to most people. That usually tends to mean it is actually wrong.
As observed, the felt dots have a very small but definit real effect and one that happens in specific frequency regions that determine spatial hearing (see Blauerts works on these frequency regions - aka the Blauert Bands).
The chinese chess pieces appear to be extremely effective at what they are supposed to do, namely to challenge peoples prejudices.
Crystals have no effect on what is heard, but in the presence of a lot of electronic gear they appear to aid general well being (which aids in turn being relaxed when listening) and (blind) removal of them appears to impact on that wellbeing factor. I am still investigating.
I suspect this would probably fall within Randi's paranormal challenge, not sure what protocol would apply. All I know I end up putting them back when the sceptical side of my psyche makes me remove them.
I repeat, Crystals do not change the sound of equipment in my experience. The appear to make me and others feel more relaxed and they are pretty.
Ciao T
mosfet said:
Empirical observation. The Felt dots BTW had a certain measurable effect on RT60, not large but repeatable.
Crystals do have interesting properties. I use them according to principles of Feng Shui where they are said to counter "negative energies" emanating from technical devices, in western lingo we would call it "Electro Smog". I remain baffled by them but found them subjectively and both at work and home to seem an effect. Fry me, I really do not understand, but it appears to be working.
BTW, Crystals as such do not change the sound.
The chinese chess pieces are largely an affection, I include them allways as "closed minded foolsbait".
As for harmonica plates, I'd prefer to hange a violin, a viola da gamba and maybe an acoustical guitar across my front wall, but I'd have to endlessly tune them and I lack the space. Harmonic plates work easier and they do so by symathetic and harmonic resonce (obviously).
For Belts devices I am again extremely stumped and sceptical, that is one of the reasons why I declined to write about them (which seems to have rescued me unwittingly from being "Randi Challenged", well at least not by anyone by my wife).
Trust me, I am rather sceptical of things, though more in Humean/Kantean line than that of Randi, CISCOP, Self and other selfappointed guardians of orthodoxy.
mosfet said:
It is by far the easiest "cop out" theory, so you do not have to face up to the actual hguge gaps of uncertainties, assumptions and occams razor violating suppositions we currently call science. It is comforting to think we have it all figured out, or if not all, then at least all that matters. This tendency to internalise the issues (it is all delusion) is an expression of that. It does not make that theory coherent though. It merely makes it acceptable to most people. That usually tends to mean it is actually wrong.
As observed, the felt dots have a very small but definit real effect and one that happens in specific frequency regions that determine spatial hearing (see Blauerts works on these frequency regions - aka the Blauert Bands).
The chinese chess pieces appear to be extremely effective at what they are supposed to do, namely to challenge peoples prejudices.
Crystals have no effect on what is heard, but in the presence of a lot of electronic gear they appear to aid general well being (which aids in turn being relaxed when listening) and (blind) removal of them appears to impact on that wellbeing factor. I am still investigating.
I suspect this would probably fall within Randi's paranormal challenge, not sure what protocol would apply. All I know I end up putting them back when the sceptical side of my psyche makes me remove them.
I repeat, Crystals do not change the sound of equipment in my experience. The appear to make me and others feel more relaxed and they are pretty.
Ciao T
I think the other most rational explanation is that they effect things outside our understanding of materialistic mechanism. Lets face it, a lot of things we take for granted now would have been thought to be a load of rubbish 200 years ago.
A huge number of people and different cultures seem to think things like crystals and Feng Shui have an effect on things so it seems most likely we just don't know enough about it yet.
There was an experiment where a group of a few thousand people from over the world came together for a collective meditation in the US (New York maybe?). They predicted that they could create a 32% drop in violent crime over that period. While the police chief came on TV to publicly say it wouldn't make any difference, after the experiment he was in support of it because there was indeed a 32% decrease in violent crime. They were able to predict that figure from a few smaller experiments beforehand. Just because you can't measure something doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect.
I am not a fully pledged believer, I think those felt dot things are far more likely to be having an effect on Thorsten than the sound, but some of the other things could well be having an effect we just don't understand.
A huge number of people and different cultures seem to think things like crystals and Feng Shui have an effect on things so it seems most likely we just don't know enough about it yet.
There was an experiment where a group of a few thousand people from over the world came together for a collective meditation in the US (New York maybe?). They predicted that they could create a 32% drop in violent crime over that period. While the police chief came on TV to publicly say it wouldn't make any difference, after the experiment he was in support of it because there was indeed a 32% decrease in violent crime. They were able to predict that figure from a few smaller experiments beforehand. Just because you can't measure something doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect.
I am not a fully pledged believer, I think those felt dot things are far more likely to be having an effect on Thorsten than the sound, but some of the other things could well be having an effect we just don't understand.
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
Over a number of years studying with the late C. Maxwell Cade, British biofeedback researcher and meditation teacher, I have personally witnessed the effects that people can have on each other's brain wave patterns, electrical skin resistance, etc., without touching. In so far as meditation has a measurable effect on the meditator's physiology, it can also affect others around the meditator. In a similar vein, I am totally convinced of the efficacy of faith healing and I believe that 'faith' is only one aspect of its mechanism.
Don't know from dots and crystals though.
Steve
Don't know from dots and crystals though.
Steve
Empiricism relies on proving methods based on sensory experience. You can probably work out the rest so I won't bother typing it.
This I will take a little more seriously and look at. However given what I do know about room acoustics I remain sceptical.
I appreciate the candour of the reply. ââ'¬Å"Electro Smogââ'¬Â usually refers to the soup of environmental air-borne EMI as I've read the term used. Crystals exhibit piezoelectric effect and therefore could be considered as lossy absorbers of environmental EMI.
If this mechanism is correct and of consequence (e.g. the amount of environmental EMI converted to heat is of some significance) then I'd expect to see crystals being used as part of the portfolio of materials used for EMI control given the business of EMI control is a world wide billion pound industry. I don't.
Hi-Fi ornaments. Fine, I'm sure many have these.
And the point of this is? Other than to add possible audible and unwanted colouration. The reason my guitars are well away from my listening position.
It's not cop out theory at all; it's a requirement for logical positivism. It would be foolish to dismiss the human psyche as explanation I think.
The Devil
IHTFP
That's diplomacy.wolfgang said:
3DSonics
away working hard on "it"
Hi,
Everything is based on sensory experience.
We are talking about 1" felt 'dots' of around 5mm thickness.
They are placed primarily in room corners. If you have experienced the rather dramatic result of even small "corner tune" pillows you might be a little less sceptical. but why not try it?
Yes. Ultimatly I do not know. To the limits of my current ability to test I find some effects, that's all.
Subjectively it lessens the perception of artificiality. To me the "colorations" are actually NOT undesirable.... ;-)
I suggested to place them not near your ear, but in effect in the soundstage, on the wall opposite of your listening position.
And we are back to philosophy. And to oxymorons.
I am not dismissing it, I merely do not accept it as the default, first and/or only possible explanation.
Ciao T
mosfet said:
Everything is based on sensory experience.
mosfet said:
We are talking about 1" felt 'dots' of around 5mm thickness.
They are placed primarily in room corners. If you have experienced the rather dramatic result of even small "corner tune" pillows you might be a little less sceptical. but why not try it?
mosfet said:
Yes. Ultimatly I do not know. To the limits of my current ability to test I find some effects, that's all.
mosfet said:
Subjectively it lessens the perception of artificiality. To me the "colorations" are actually NOT undesirable.... ;-)
mosfet said:
I suggested to place them not near your ear, but in effect in the soundstage, on the wall opposite of your listening position.
mosfet said:
And we are back to philosophy. And to oxymorons.
mosfet said:
I am not dismissing it, I merely do not accept it as the default, first and/or only possible explanation.
Ciao T
I can't believe you want guitars and violins on your wall, they annoy the hell out of me if they are in the listening room! 
I am planning to get some of those cover things to go in the holes of the guitar body and stop them resonating. Violins I haven't found so bad and harmonicas I can't even hear! (unless I'm playing it, and then I wish I couldn't!) Or does the harmonica plate have to be taken out the harmonica?
You are basically increasing your rooms RT60 by placing sympathetic resonators in there when they have no damping.
I suppose you could move instruments in and out of the room to match what music is playing but it seems odd to want a guitar resonating away in the room if there is only a singer and a piano in the recording!
Still each to their own!
I agree about the psyche, it should be the last explanation you look at really.
I am planning to get some of those cover things to go in the holes of the guitar body and stop them resonating. Violins I haven't found so bad and harmonicas I can't even hear! (unless I'm playing it, and then I wish I couldn't!) Or does the harmonica plate have to be taken out the harmonica?You are basically increasing your rooms RT60 by placing sympathetic resonators in there when they have no damping.
I suppose you could move instruments in and out of the room to match what music is playing but it seems odd to want a guitar resonating away in the room if there is only a singer and a piano in the recording!
Still each to their own!
I agree about the psyche, it should be the last explanation you look at really.
Which indeed necessitates empirical observation should be treated with caution; specifically the method used to arrive at any such observation or knowledge. The human psyche is not by default the explanation in this case; neither do I see any attempt on your part to falsify the proposition that it is. Consequently the ââ'¬Å"Empirical observationââ'¬Â you refer to I would dismiss in this instance.
The reference to RT60, as I said, is worthy of looking at further.
A gas-porous material will have absorptive effect (of significance) at wavelengths equivalent to at least the one-quarter wavelength of a given frequency when placed against a reflective boundary. The one-quarter wavelength of 20kHz in air is a little less than 5mm so, with enough of these dots, their could be some sort of spatial altering or disruption of the room acoustic at high frequencies.
Or again there could be none. I'll give it the consideration I think it deserves.
Each to their own etc
Have you done anything to falsify it? It may of course be the first or last tick box on the sheet depending on point of view.
tones
compulsive cantater
It had to come...
The Hi-Fi Choice Forum, with the gracious acquiescence of the Dope and the Collage of Carbuncles of the Church of the Reproduction, hereby awards
THE FOX MULDER PRIZE FOR AUDIOPHILICITY
for services above and beyond the call of duty in refuting the forces of scepticism and in seeking to promulgate the Faith and maintain the constant upgrading expected of The Truly Faithful, to
3D SONICS
for being such a devout True Believer that, at gatherings of True Believers, others point at him and say, "Who's that True Believer there?"
The bearer of this award may hereinafter style him/herself ââ'¬Å"name, FMââ'¬Â
May the richest blessings of The Divine HOBBY be forever with thee
Proudly sponsored by the HFC ââ'¬Å"The Myths of Hi-Fiââ'¬Â thread
The Hi-Fi Choice Forum, with the gracious acquiescence of the Dope and the Collage of Carbuncles of the Church of the Reproduction, hereby awards
THE FOX MULDER PRIZE FOR AUDIOPHILICITY
for services above and beyond the call of duty in refuting the forces of scepticism and in seeking to promulgate the Faith and maintain the constant upgrading expected of The Truly Faithful, to
3D SONICS
for being such a devout True Believer that, at gatherings of True Believers, others point at him and say, "Who's that True Believer there?"
The bearer of this award may hereinafter style him/herself ââ'¬Å"name, FMââ'¬Â
May the richest blessings of The Divine HOBBY be forever with thee
Proudly sponsored by the HFC ââ'¬Å"The Myths of Hi-Fiââ'¬Â thread
tones
compulsive cantater
Could have sworn that that was some sort of angle iron, but new scholarship often throws new light on the meanings of words in the ancient texts. Of course, both might be right and perhaps he was just going to stick them on the platter of solidified water he was using in the absence of glass. This could be the first known instance of someone dotting the ice.notaclue said:
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The Devil
IHTFP
Yes, and that's why we are so amused.3DSonics said:
But if they make you happy, carry on. Seems harmless enough.
lordsummit
moderate mod
I tried sticking some on the wife earlier today, it neither improved her tone or her appearance. Now I can see a use for some stick on rubber bits.......
tones said:
Interestingly, we also read: "And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticky dots, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand."
I think this is HOBBYs way of saying that we must 'burn-in' our sticky dots for maximum performance.
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