Anyone heard the GBP7000 NAIM CD Player?

I would like to use my replacement gear to dig deeper and better into the recordings then possible with the older gear before.

Wolfgang, I agree. However, I find "measurable improvements", as you put it, rather elusive in A/B dems for CD players (whereas speakers are much easier to evaluate in such situations, IMO).

I have an expensive CD player -- when I compare it to my cheapo DVD player, they "sound" pretty much the same (and I would think they exhibit pretty much the same frequency response). It's only when I sit down to actually listen to music and forget about the nerdery that I prefer one over the other (because I dig deeper into the music, even when I'm not sat there listening intensely but doing the dishes, for example).

Paul is, of course, right and perhaps me knowing how much I spent on the CDP dupes me into thinking it's sublime in some other way than the frequency response. I'm also nerdy enough to find blind testing interesting and useful for some things, but IMO blind testing CDPs would have to involve running round the house blindfolded for a week, with a generic remote (so I can't tell the which player I'm operating) and a mute servant who puts CDs into the player at my command (without making any noise whatsoever). Think of all the injuries I would incur!

 

Lets turn this around a little. If you look at it another way you could argue that the CDS2 is actually very, very average as it is hardly better than a marantz player.

 

Or turning it on its head again, you could argue that spending thousands of pounds on a compact disc player is a waste of money, if there is such a small difference to be gained.


I wouldnt want to start a war though, so tin hats on, back to the trenches!

 

Chris,

Perhaps it could be better put as 'Or turning it on its head again, you could argue that spending thousands of pounds on a Naim compact disc player is a waste of money, if there is such a small difference to be gained'


:JOEL:

 

Thomas,
Seems we are thinking along the same line. Speakers differences are more obvious then CDP/transport. To my humble ears, absolutely agrees. As to how best to tell the differences in qualities that seem more illusive and subtle, let's see if I could explain my thought today. Say if you want to know which girl you should ask to marry. It would be better if you spend more time together then just formulate your decision on a single 5 minute date. To know her you have to really spend time and effort to learn about her and if you could actually spend the rest of your life with her. Seems like a good idea so far.

If you have indeed live together for a long period you would think it is not going to be difficult to recognise her voice instantly in a recording without video confirmation. You would still think it is piece of cake to pick out her voice in a sample of 500 people recordings. Say one actress manage to imitate your girlfriend voice very well. What would you do then? Ask to compare the two side by side quickly for a few times, reading the same passage again and again, maybe?

In other words you do an A/B comparison.

 

Wolfgang,

A better analogy, but I don't think it works in your favour! I might A/B to find out which woman is which, but the fact that the actress can imitate my wife's voice could also be construed as an indication that the voice is not the crucial bit. What is crucial about my wife is the things she says over dinner, the way she smiles at me, and so on.

Assuming I was unable to tell my wife's (my CDP's) voice from that of an actress (any old CDP) in an A/B test, would that imply that I could just as well have married the actress? Of course not. And the longer the voices are played to me, the higher the likelihood of me being able to identify my wife (because of idiosyncrasies that inevitably slip in after a while).

I have to say that I would probably be hard-pressed to tell *any* two CDPs apart in a 30-second A/B dem, but it hasn't kept me from spending lots on a more expensive player and feeling very happy about the purchase. Had I based any buying decision solely on a quick A/B dem, I would have simply bought the cheapest player. I don't discount the possibility that I would have been just as happy with the cheapest player, but I should think it's a rather remote possibility.

Perhaps we just have different priorities when selecting gear. For me, a home dem is a must for CDPs.

Incidentally, I once shared a house with two actresses. I heard one of the girls on the radio once, doing a play -- had I not known it was her, I wouldn't have noticed.

 

This an interesting subject.
About three years ago I picked up and American Hi Fi mag called Audio Critic, published by a guy called Peter Aczel. I wish I still had that original. I think it was issue number 16 and worth reading if any of you can get it.

In it he published his annual "The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio" review.
Amazing and I would have thought very litigous stuff to be publishing the the USA as he names individuals involved in the cable and interconnect industry and calls them charlatans. His writing was so fresh and contoversial I subscribed for about two years. I still have the following years issue 26 with the "Ten Biggest Lies In Audio" review and although his language has been toned down dramatically, his viewpoints and challenges remain unchanged.

This guy is very obviously a serious music lover and an Electrical Engineer of some sort. I can easily imagine him provoking intense hatred as he is so blunt in his writing about Hi Fi. A luxury he could afford as he didn't really have to appease any advertisers (which may explain why his mag appears to have sadly gone defunct - it was an entertaining read if nothing else)

Apart from The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio which he worote about each year (they were always the same lies) He was a great believer in two things: (And don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger"

(1) "If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist theory" He appeared to have some other famous audio designers he used to quote E.g Robert Modaferi, Floyd O'Toole - can't remember the others - on his side. and
(2) In blind testing all (well designed) amplifiers sound the same (He also asserts there is nothing a valve amp can do that an SS amp can't do cheaper and more reliably)... on the proviso that the volume level on each component being tested was set by an SPL meter to within some small percentage - around 0.01% or whatever.
He openly challenged anyone - especially Harry Pearson (TAS) and John Atkison (Stereophile) to ever be able to consistently identify which one was playing. As best I recall from the article he mentioned Krell behemoths and budget Pioneer.
He claimed also that :
(a) "All CD players sound the same",
(b) "Amplifiers and speakers do not know the difference between 30c per meter Radio Shack cable and exotic cables and interconnects" He was particularly vitriolic and contemptuos of high priced cables/interconnects even naming the well known people and calling them charlatans.
(c) The "break in theory is nonsence" He asserts transformers and capacitors form within second of being first turned on and that is that.

My first impressions were, the man is nuts but at the time I had in my living room a CD only system comprised of an Onkyo 929 CD Player (I think that was the model number, but it was at the time, the top of the Onkyo range and cost me USD900) an Audible Illusions Modulus 3 tubed pre-amplifier (rated class B by Stereophile) a pair of Antique Audio 100W monobloc valve amplifiers and ATC speakers (I think SC20).

In the family room, I had just installed a home theater system. The cheapest ever "made in Chiina" Pioneer DVD player which cost USD140, the top of the range Onkyo 929 multichannel amp
and Definitive Technology home theater speakers.

To test wether the difference between CD and DVD player I carted the CD only system through to the family room and compared the $900 CD player with the cheap $140 DVD player. Neither I, my wife my son nor any of my friends could tell the difference in my very roughly arranged blind test. This may not mean a lot .... one upper midrange Japanese CDP against a super cheap Chinese DVD player but this is why I asked forummers if they had any experience at evaluating how much better a seven thousand pound CD player was against a five hundred pound CD player.

I then got ambitious and decided to compare the valve pre-amp/ valve monobloc against the Onkyo 929 multi channel amp through the ATC speakers. After changing back and forth, back and forth .... the consensus was pretty well even but very marginally in favour of the Onkyo. (This test was identify which sound was best liked) An interesting but disturbing result. I would never have believed that I could not tell the difference between valves and a upper-mid Japanese Home Theater amp.
I am a guitar and bass player and I always listen for the sharp attack and leading edges of notes ..... which is probably why I like Naim. But between my tubed monoblocs and the Onkyo, there was no difference.

To finish, am I allowed to quote and list Peter Aczel in part from his list of the Ten Biggest Lies In Audio:
"........... At the dark end of the specrum, however, a new age of ignorance superstition and dishonesty holds sway. Why and how that came about has been amply covered in past issues of this publication; here I shall focus on the rogues' gallery of currently proferred mendacities to snare the credulous"
1. The Cable Lie. ............
2. The Vacuum Tube Lie: .........................
3. The Anti Digital Lie: ...............................
4. The Listening Test Lie: ..........................
5. The Feedback Lie: ...................................
6. The Burn-In Lie: .....................................
7. The BiWiring Lie: .....................................
8. The Power Conditioner Lie: .........................
9. The CD Treatment Lie: .....................................
10. The Golden Ear Lie: ......................................

All his explanations are as controversial as his headings and some of it I have come to believe, but some of it I don't .... how's that for selective preference ............. but he's always interesting.
I for one wish he was still publishing.

 

Not shooting the messenger, but

That example is simply untrue, as just about any manufacturers data sheet (for electrolytic caps) will show you.

Look for the leakage spec, and see when it is measured and under what conditions it's guaranteed.

Andy.

 

Re: Not shooting the messenger, but

For the lazy among us, why don't you post some leakage numbers along with part numbers? Obviously choose parts that you'd use for audio applications...

Do the specs say: 5 seconds, 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 weeks or 5 months ? If it turns out to be 5 minutes we might think you're being disingenuous

The "burn in beleivers" seem to reap benefits after weeks.

JohnMak: You will be pleased to know that issue 29 of "The Audio Critic" is available on newstands right now. It came out a couple of months ago, with display until issue 30 - I saw a few copies at Tower Records in California tonight.

 

Hi dat19, That's great news.

I have not received a copy for over two years. I assumed they had "gone under" as I know they struggled to survive without depending too much on advertisements.

I loved reading his stuff. As it was such a contrast to everything else you read and was such a contrast to the likes of Stereophile, TAS, Hi Fi Choice, etc etc etc where NEARLY every model is wonderful, the best of ....., lifts another veil, suspends disbelief or what ever the phrase of the month is.

I have searched the internet dat19 but I cannot find any current contact info as I would like to subscribe again. I'm living and working in Vietnam so if you have a copy could you email their contact details from the inside cover of the mag please. It would be much appreciated.

Cheers

 

Bloody blind Testing.

Ok it wasn't double blind... but I've done this.

CD players sound the same, huh?

Can the same be said about a different PSU feeding the analogue output of a CD5?

Three years ago I was asked to identify the following three permutations of the following system mounted on Quadraspire Q4 - Naim CD5/Flatcap2/112/150/JMLab 806s on their proprietary wooden stands. All wires wre standard Naim although the mains leads were plugged into a Music Works block.

1) CD5 fed by its own internal power supply, preamp (112) fed by the power amp (150.)

2) CD5 fed by output A of the Flatcap 2, the preamp fed by the power amp.

3) CD5 fed by ouput B of the Flatcap 2, the pre fed by Output A of the Flatcap 2 - as per Naim's guidelines.

I prefered the second option and after countless times that the dealer switched round the connections at the back I was able to identify the correct permutation.

Another guy called Mike who was with me also guessed correctly each and every time.

Aczel is deaf and talks bollocks.

 

'Countless' In statistics (which Aczel is using) requires 16 trials, where you have to get 13+ right, in order to get a "reasonable" probability that the result isn't "chance", and he got that criteria from this paper[1]. I sincerely doubt the dealer swapped each combination in 16 times, and as you say this anecdotal evidence was neither "double blind" nor "level matched".

Your just another of the procrastinating subjectivists who find excuses to not participate in proper tests

Perhaps the followers of Roy K Riches (the bretheren of the mains spur) might say the same about you, as you cannot hear the tings on his test CD

[1] Les Leventhal, "Type 1 vs Type 2 Errors in the statistical Analysis of Listening Tests", Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Volume 34 Number 6, June 1986

 

Please explain. How does the output voltage from the transport make a difference to the output voltage of the DAC?

 

Interesting, and without taking sides, if Aczel were to be right,

1- Would dealers heartily agree and clear their dem rooms of expensive designer Hi Fi gear?

2- Would the Hi Fi press splash the findings all over their magazines with the obvious inference being "we have misled you all for years?" This would also of course lead to a massive drop in ad.vertising revenue.

3- Would self styled Gurus on Internet Forums suddenly admit "I have been a complete twat and I never could really hear any difference between Conrad Johnson's finest and a NAD integrated."

Or would we all ignore him and hope he went away. It seems to me that the Hi Fi industry has nothing at all to gain from objectivity and everything to lose.

 

No, because the business has a lot to do with satisfying people ego's and little to do with actual music.. Let me use an analogy which applies to cd players and amplifiers..

Quartz watches keep better time than mechanical watches - but this has not put Rolex, Omega, Phillipe Patek etc out of business.

There would still be room for "pissing contest" mine-cost-more-than-yours designer hifi.

There is still some latitude in the choice of speakers, but even there, flat frequency response with smooth off-axis response has been demonstrated, in proper double blind tests, to sound correlate well with listener preference. Turning that about, you can pretty much measure a speaker and know whether it will sound good in listening tests. Aczel is merely restating the research conducted by Floyd Toole..

They'd just stop claiming there was any difference in sound, and focus on how much more likely you were to get laid if you had a $10K CD player

Did I say "pissing contest"?

Quite.

You only have to look at the price and "quality" of "pro" audio gear (the stuff used to record your CD's, vinyl) to realise what a sham the other end of the chain is...

 

Datty boy admit it, you just love being a self rightous wind up artist with a chip on your shoulder, or have I got you wrong?
I will agree with you on some of the pro gear, its bad for sure proberbly explains why we get shit at this end. I've seen some of the op-amp configurations and output stages in quite a few mixing desks & dac's however it's all compremises, as to be truely spot on, all the kit throught out the entire sound chain would need to be top notch for 'untainted studio reproduction' and thats simply doesn't happen, from the recording mike to the sound leaving the cones on your home hifi speakers, they are always 'blips' in the chain
Here's something For......

Stebbo
Dat 19
Tones
Wolfgang
Not a Clue to really sink your teeth into..............


Ryme or reason ?

 

Hi Paul and dat19.
What a couple of interesting posts. I was trying to think of a reasoned non partisan reply to you Paul, but dat19 beat me to it.
Especially with his last comment about what is being used to produce the original sound and to record it.

E.g. When I go into a music shop to buy a new guitar of guitar amplifier, I don't need weeks at home to evaluate the sound. I recognise immediately what I'm looking for (I now have Mesa Boogie, Gallien Krueger and Fender amps- but I love the Mesa Boogie most of all). This gear doesn't need "burn in", "separate mains spurs" or "expensive cables" yet it sounds great wherever I play it. And of course, compared to Hi Fi gear which is going to try to reproduce these sounds, it costs peanuts. Go figure???

All I want is the best CD player and amp I can get that can produce the rapid attack and bite I hear from my guitars and basses when I'm listening to commercial CD's at home. Perhaps this is why I am drawn towrds Naim gear. Naim is certainly aggressive sounding and certainly gets up and slaps you about the face. (God should I just keep using my Peavey PA system and bins which I play my band gear through)

Of course, there are many who prefer classical instruments and I'm in no position to comment on this apart from being a cello enthusiast and very poor player. So what I hear when I struggle to play the cello or play gigs is a sound very "close" so my preference is for hi fi that puts the music "in my face". I'm probably an atypical music lover. But I would still appreciate any comments on wether I should pay seven thousand pounds for a CD player to get this.

I live and work in Vietnam so I do not have the luxury of auditions/comparisons as there are no Naim dealer here. Also the mains here is S.H.I.T.E. so I'm a little nervous about gear that cannot function without pristine mains and seems to need separate power supplies for each box. Hence my original question about alternatives - if there are any.

I know I would love the Naim CDX2 gear having heard it in Singapore but is the CDS3 worth 50% more. So far it seems Densen, Sim and Accuphase may be less costly contenders under my circumstances.

 

Pro gear like that made by dCS (which was originally a pro only company) perhaps? I don't know how much dCS's pro gear costs but I doubt it's cheaper than their consumer stuff (which is amongst the most expensive digital gear there is) because otherwise people would just by their pro kit instead.

dat19 - why do you bother coming here anyway? Just go off and listen to some music on your Goodmans mini system which, no doubt, would be indistinguishable from a £5K system in a double blind, level matched test

If all you're interested in is trying to wind people up then, quite frankly, you can bugger off.

Michael.

 

John,

I would say that none of the above players will give you what you are after over and above a CDX2 if you are after a hard, agressive sound. I reckon you may be better served by trying out some of the previous Naim players such as the CDX. I have heard that hard and aggressive are its middle names.

 

Who me, a wind up artist? Oh sure.

I mean I have to wonder about your "beliefs" what with you calling yourself "wadia-meister", I mean just imagine if in a test you couldn't tell the difference between a bargain basement DVD player and you $10K Wadia, we'd have to start calling you "panasonic-meister", or perhaps to show deference to our Japanesse bretheren "panasonic-samurai".

Speaking of chips, I notice your tweako tendancies to drop new op-amps into otherwise correctly functioning circuits. Presumably you have test equipment, other than your ears, capable of showing the imrovements you have made. As you know your dB from your elbow, you should be capable of a little level matched testing - why not try it?