Anyone still using dealers?

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by Saab
who asked that?

<snip>

so everything bought using the web,advice and all................and of course it could have been an almighty mess,but instead I got a 4k system for £1400,and luckily (my italics - Uncle Ants) the system suits my musical tastes,perfectly so (the advice i was given suggested this when i stipulated what my tastes and listening volumes are,as did the reviews)

am I mad,mental,insane? insert your own adjective,but whatever,i am very happy with what i ended up with,and I didnt go near a dealer.

It were me

Neither mad, mental nor insane, but by your own telling of it - lucky.

I bought my current deck secondhand off ebay and also took a risk getting a secondhand cartridge from the same place - we're talking fairly low sums of money though and luckily it came off. I've been highly delighted with it - it suits me, but it needn't have had such a happy ending. Like you said, it could have been an almighty mess but luckily it wasn't

So I've bought stuff unheard on the net myself but it'd sure make me uncomfy taking the risk spending (what is for me) largish sums of cash on new stuff unheard on the basis of recommendation - secondhand gear of course ain't so risky as the chance of losing a wad in depreciation isn't so high ... but new stuff ...... ??

In a couple of months time I'm planning to take my vinyl front end up a notch and will be spending quite likely the best part of £600 on a new deck possibly more - do I want to spend that kind of money on something without hearing it first and run the risk of a disappointment if I don't like the character of the new deck? Not really, no.

PS. Not wanting to contradict myself (though I'm about to), but I'm gonna be auditioning some decks soon and if none of them rock my boat I have been intrigued by the Bix deck I posted about the other day (which none of you so and sos have even deigned to comment on ) - No way of checking that out except taking a flyer - Posts to VA and the WAD forums have elicited one positive (from someone who admittedly is a friend of Doc Bottlehead anyway) and others who are interested but also risk averse on WAD - Too shy to ask Pink Fish, they scare me - but its you guy's thoughts I really care about

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

Its a funny old worlde now, I think the whole web thing is going to be a grim reaper for a lot of high st shops in future, and the rip off britain types will be suffering...yey, bout time, too.

hifi are no exception, and as its a really niche small market, I think they are more vulnerable.

Like the small airlines who eventually will have the fittest ones survive, so only a few hi fi places will emerge.

The chinese onslought continues unabated, and there is some superb stuff getting chucked out for pennies. Just wait and see. We should be worried, and be celebrating for the stuff, too.

 

[dominicT]

I'm a bit late to this thread but yes I still use dealers because I like to get a good demo and if I get excellent service then they deserve to get my business. I have just called Phonography whom I bought my Hutter off nearly two years ago, I have not spoken to them since, I asked for the owner, and when the owner heard my name I heard him say " oh, great" he instantly remembered me. He gave me some great advice on selling my Hutter privately. Now that is what I call a dealer interested in their customer and he will get some business from me at some point in the future, as will Arif at KJ and Les at Walrus.

I have just bought my Quad at KJ brand new. Why? Because it is unlikely that I can get the Quad second hand; secondly because Arif invested in a blind test and saved me a huge amount of (my expensive) time because he understood exactly what I liked and got the system right first time. I did not have to trudge around for days listening to lots of different kit - even at KJ I could have listened to loads more kit but because he had sold to me before and knows his equiptment so well it save dme time. I also got a very, very good part ex on the Wadia so it was a no-brainer.

I believe that good dealers are worth it because they help me make good decisions. Bad dealers do not deserve to be in business and there are many that I would never bother with.

Edited to add I also buy vintage synths from a dealer - Music Control - actually I normally buy a synth, use it for a year or two and then trade it in for another and lose virtually nothing, say 20% on the trade which is a great deal and they are happy to trade with me because they supplied me in the first place and know that I look after my gear - it is a bit like leasing really. brilliant.

Dominic

 

[Robbo]

I have just called Phonography whom I bought my Hutter off nearly two years ago, I have not spoken to them since, I asked for the owner, and when the owner heard my name I heard him say " oh, great" he instantly remembered me

Thats probably becaus it so quiet atm that you were probably one of his most recent customers

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

I find some of them quite aloof and snobby, esp if you are just browsing.

they really ought to make it known and say, no admittance unless you are buying

 

[analoguekid]

Originally posted by dominicT
I'm a bit late to this thread but yes I still use dealers because I like to get a good demo and if I get excellent service then they deserve to get my business. I have just called Phonography whom I bought my Hutter off nearly two years ago, I have not spoken to them since, I asked for the owner, and when the owner heard my name I heard him say " oh, great" he instantly remembered me. He gave me some great advice on selling my Hutter privately. Now that is what I call a dealer interested in their customer and he will get some business from me at some point in the future, as will Arif at KJ and Les at Walrus.

I have just bought my Quad at KJ brand new. Why? Because it is unlikely that I can get the Quad second hand; secondly because Arif invested in a blind test and saved me a huge amount of (my expensive) time because he understood exactly what I liked and got the system right first time. I did not have to trudge around for days listening to lots of different kit - even at KJ I could have listened to loads more kit but because he had sold to me before and knows his equiptment so well it save dme time. I also got a very, very good part ex on the Wadia so it was a no-brainer.

I believe that good dealers are worth it because they help me make good decisions. Bad dealers do not deserve to be in business and there are many that I would never bother with.

Edited to add I also buy vintage synths from a dealer - Music Control - actually I normally buy a synth, use it for a year or two and then trade it in for another and lose virtually nothing, say 20% on the trade which is a great deal and they are happy to trade with me because they supplied me in the first place and know that I look after my gear - it is a bit like leasing really. brilliant.

Dominic

Couldn't have put it better myself thats why i still use dealers.

As to Jack Lawsons comments, (the Audio salon), his beef is not with the internet Per se but the myths that are peddled, Jack beleives that Hifi is very personal, and and if you take time to explain to your dealer what you want, then they will be able to offer you a system to fulfill those needs, and give many years of pleasure, the web only encourages mediochre brands that review well to be used as commodoties, some people like the idea of buying and selling blind, they like the buzz and excitement, but most of us do not have the time or inclination, the internet has been good at opening world markets and gets us away from some of the "british Tuned " sound that was pushed by 2 particular companies (one from Glasgow one from Salisbury), people have discovered kit that offers a different presentation, to what we were offered 10 years ago, proper dealers like Jack have known this for years, agree with some of the comments regarding snobbery but not all are like this, Jack has his own beliefs and convictions and could probably make more money, if he relaxed his principals, I know jack personally and would deal with him indefinately, he is utterly trustworthy, and has integrity, it bothers him if customers are unhappy with their purchases, on the other hand he doesn't liek timewasters, people who obviously are only in to browse, try asking for a test drive at a Ferrari dealership and you will gwt the same sort of thing, we need dealers, good ones who are as enthusiastic as we are and who are prepared to listen to what we want, and offer their best solution, Pay for this service, or buy on ebay, but stop moaning about it.

As for margins etc some kit has only 30% margin some more but if dealer sells £4K component then right away taxman wants £700 VAT add in all other costs and relatively low turnover, then this is not the business to get rich in.'

Paul

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by Lt Cdr Data
I find some of them quite aloof and snobby, esp if you are just browsing.

they really ought to make it known and say, no admittance unless you are buying

".. Even then", I would say, "you can't come in unless you're the sort of person that I'd want as a Seventh Veil customer."

Well, you've got to keep out the riff-raff. I've got an image to maintain.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by analoguekid

As to Jack Lawsons comments, (the Audio salon), his beef is not with the internet Per se but the myths that are peddled,

So why peddle a myth about reliability and incompatibility then

That's my only beef, I apreciate that he's only trying to protect his business, as are many high end dealers. the real problem seems to arise from the distributors' margins, making kit unaffordable to many music lovers unless they wish to buy from the internet. I purchased a pre/power/cd combo from the states, had the voltage conversion carried out by the manufacturer, and still ended up paying just £6K. My local dealer wants £14K

I would be happy to pay for true Audio Consultancy, where the individual recommends a setup to me after visiting my room and discussing my requirements. He should then advise me as to where I can purchase the goods at the price I want to pay. Dealers claiming to operate as consultants do not offer this service, merely looking to offer you something that might fit your needs that they happen to stock (somewhat limiting factors). In the financial industry, they would not be allowed to behave in such a way. True independent consultants would be a good idea, but surely they exist on the internet, not in the various retail outlets scattered around the country?

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by 7_V
".. Even then", I would say, "you can't come in unless you're the sort of person that I'd want as a Seventh Veil customer."

Well, you've got to keep out the riff-raff. I've got an image to maintain.

Oh dear. Well I'm definitely riff-raff. Does that mean your offer to visit should I be down your way is withdrawn then?

 

[Hex Spurt]

Originally posted by merlin
the real problem seems to arise from the distributors' margins, making kit unaffordable to many music lovers unless they wish to buy from the internet. I purchased a pre/power/cd combo from the states, had the voltage conversion carried out by the manufacturer, and still ended up paying just £6K. My local dealer wants £14K

Interesting. But here's the flip side of that argument.

I know a UK distributor who visited the CEDIA expo in the USA about 5 years ago looking to sign up European distribution rights to some top end US audio brands. When approached, most of the US manufacturers just couldn't be bothered with the hassle. Their response was something like 'Europe isn't a big enough market' or 'we've got enough business here, thanks'. They had no clue that Europe has approx 250 million consumers - about the same as the US I believe

Of those who agreed to discuss things further he was appaled to find that they just wanted to sell him the stuff at dealer margins which meant he would have to inflate the prices to fund marketing and dealer support.

I would not suggest this is the only reason why there can be a vast difference between US and UK prices for American product, but this attitude by the US manufacturers can't help

Hex

 

[analoguekid]

Originally posted by merlin
So why peddle a myth about reliability and incompatibility then

He was probably referring to a certain chinese manufacturer, a lot of people go to the Salon, listen to the kit, ie take up his time, then buy a 220v model on the net when it breaks down (as many of these impoted ones have) they go back to Salon to get it repaired, (of which they have no chance), and expect to receive same aftersales service, Jack is enthusiast first business man second, and i for one think we need more like him, as to consultancy, you are probably correct, although Jack will visit your home if he thinks it is worthwhile and can access some brands which he may not stock due to interbrand politics, eg he likes Sim products but is unwilling to take them on as another local dealer sells them, if he starts selling "their" brands, they will start selling his, and they both may go out of business. I orderd a Schroers rack from him even although he doesn't normally sell it, (delivery takes up to six weeks and Jack thinks this is unnaceptable for a rack, although he is prepared to wait for his beloved Simon Yorke TT's) and I got healthy 20% discount from list.

The dealers who are spoiling things IMO are the larger chains, whose staff can sometimes leave alot to be desired, and they make the killing due to higher margins based on volume which they usually don't pass on to the consumer.

Paul

 

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by analoguekid
I know jack personally and would deal with him indefinately, he is utterly trustworthy, and has integrity,

he doesn't liek timewasters, people who obviously are only in to browse,

Paul

I see this as a bad thing.

Many times I visit shops only to browse. I am subconciously coming to slow decisions in life about how to spend money..

or how NOT to spend money if my browsing results in anything other than generosity of time and spirit.

I learned early on in retail (I was in retail for 6 years) that there is no such thing as a timewaster. I tried to treat every customer with dignity and respect. You'd often see someone come back months later who was 'timewasting' previously..

just my tuppence worth on a pet hate!



Chris

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by bottleneck
I see this as a bad thing.

Many times I visit shops only to browse. I am subconciously coming to slow decisions in life about how to spend money..

or how NOT to spend money if my browsing results in anything other than generosity of time and spirit.

I learned early on in retail (I was in retail for 6 years) that there is no such thing as a timewaster. I tried to treat every customer with dignity and respect. You'd often see someone come back months later who was 'timewasting' previously..

just my tuppence worth on a pet hate!



Chris

Totally with you on this one Chris. How the hell does anyone know someone is a timewaster if all they are doing is browsing? BRowsing costs the dealer next to nothing - its not as if the browsers are booking up a whole afternoons demo time and then doing nix - and if they did is that the "timewasters" fault or the dealers? Treat em all as good customers and you WILL do fine I'm sure. Even the kids in to gawp may be buyers some day.

Treat em like poo and they'll never darken your shop (or spend any money in it) again.

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by Uncle Ants
Oh dear. Well I'm definitely riff-raff. Does that mean your offer to visit should I be down your way is withdrawn then?

No, I'm always happy to slum it for a Zero Gainer.

Seriously though, I agree wholeheartedly with the views posted above. There is no such thing as a time-waster. As far as I can I'm always happy to demo the speakers, even when the audience isn't buying. I am ambitious for the company but I believe that long-term, that's the way to succeed.

We'll see.

 

[ANOpax]

There is no such thing as a time-waster. As far as I can I'm always happy to demo the speakers, even when the audience isn't buying.

And even if they aren't buying, they may know someone who is. Word of mouth is very powerful.

reg

 

[Robbo]

There are a number of dealers who seem to have that kind of supremely arrogant attitude around my way (the worst offendors are those who sell megabucks US kit). I know for a fact that they are not getting a penny of my money, even if it means I have to go out of my way to get a similar item.

And as has been said, word of mouth is very powerful. I suspect many of my acquaintences wont be setting foot in those dealers either.

 

[greg]

I personally quite like the idea of bigger, out of town (thus lower fixed costs), emporia. Untied (or as untied as possible) to particular brands, providing a range of listening rooms, catering for mid and high end gear, used equipment, etc.

One place that appears to fit this bill is...

http://www.midlandaudiox-change.co.uk/

I'm yet to visit. Has anyone got any experience of them?

Chap I spoke to on the phone seemed pretty down to earth and genuinely interested in my objectives.

 

[analoguekid]

Originally posted by bottleneck
I see this as a bad thing.

Many times I visit shops only to browse. I am subconciously coming to slow decisions in life about how to spend money..

or how NOT to spend money if my browsing results in anything other than generosity of time and spirit.

I learned early on in retail (I was in retail for 6 years) that there is no such thing as a timewaster. I tried to treat every customer with dignity and respect. You'd often see someone come back months later who was 'timewasting' previously..

just my tuppence worth on a pet hate!



Chris

Let me qualifiy what I have said probably didn't wxplain, jacks beef is the ones who want to listen to kit, before buying s/h on ebay, he recently had a customer who wanted to dem about 4 types of speaker, chap visited store and arranged dem, in the meantime he bougth speakers Blind from ebay, and postponed the dem, till saturday, Chap didn't turn up for dem, and didn't cancel, Jacks time was wasted as he blocked off 2 hours for dem and moved all speakers equipment etc to dem room(salon has 3 floors), this was a complete waste of his time, If you are a genuine enthusiast and may want to browse, (although setup at Salon is not like normal shop with stuff on racks and prices, so not really a browsing type store), or discuss current and future requirements, then Jack is more than happy to spend the time with you discussing these requirements, what he doesn't like is people who want his advice and expertise, when they have NO intention of buying products from him, Different if you listen to what he has to offer, and then don't like it and buy different brand elswhere.

Was in the Salon one day and Jack was coming to the end of a lenghty telephone conversation, he was discussing Shanling products, chap on other end wanted all advice and strenghts of kit, and then had the cheek to ask if Jack thought that buying the product on the internet would be ok, as it was cheaper than official dealers. Are some people so thick skinned, dealers are only (just?) human, they are not the citizens advice bereau, they may offer advice to existing customers as to the merits of products that they can't source for you, but they are not in the business of giving free advice.

Jack understands that people will want to visit his shop with no intention of buying at present, and may be future customers, all he asks is that you be honest with him, and don't try to pull the wool over his eyes.

The Salon is not the type of store for browsing, more like American or upmarket kind of Sales pitch when you arrive you will be seved by Jack or Dale and have their undivided attention, they will look after you the whole time you are in, they prefer you to make appointment, although are quite happy if you drop in first to discuss requirements, so not really the type of place like Seven oaks that has racks of equipment you can touch and examine, without taking up staff time.

Paul

 

[wadia-miester]

Greg,

John Roberts, (MAX) he also posts here sometimes, is pretty down the wire guy, oddles of kit, more than most UK dealers I've ever been too (and alot of US ones too)
The listening room is superb, an old church, he friendly and if your into cars the coffee keeps flowing He's an Audi man (RS4)
I've purchased equipment from him, a firm recommendation Wm

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Robbo
There are a number of dealers who seem to have that kind of supremely arrogant attitude around my way

I think that's half the problem Robbo and of course, they are still living in an age where they beleive the customer has no choice BUT to buy from them.

Perhaps that is the case with the Linn/Naim boys, their market ruthlessly protected by the manufacturer (even if the staff are now buying in personally and selling on the net!)

But surely they need to realise that there is now a choice, and the only way to keep market share in a shinking industry is to offer outstanding service and competitive pricing. It's no one's god given right to have my money.

The dealers who are spoiling things IMO are the larger chains, whose staff can sometimes leave alot to be desired, and they make the killing due to higher margins based on volume which they usually don't pass on to the consumer.

Paul, trust me on this, they are suffering even more, due to the fact that it is more widely understood that much of their bread and butter inventory is available at below trade via established internet traders.

I understand that margins are set to allow for excessive overheads and low volume of sales, but there must come a point where this style of trading (which costs the consumer an inordinate amount of their money) simply becomes unviable.

As for Audio Salon, well a lot of dealers in the South East would complain that they are hamstrung by having to sell at the same price whilst incurring vastly higher overheads than those suffered by a Glasgow based dealership. If you are a hifi dealer in Scotland, shouldn't you be passing some of those savings to the consumer?