Anyone still using dealers?

[Hex Spurt]

Hmm...another 'cake and eat it' enthusiast.

Originally posted by blakeaudio
i didn't buy any of my kit in a "shop", instead i got it all off the internet and saved a packet in the process.

... i think your going to see more system consultants emerge..."the right note" in bath seems to take this approach from the number of telephone conversations i had with the proprietor (can't remember his name) and i know he works out of his house.

So, is Right Note an internet only supplier, or one of those 'dealers' they you don't use but whose time you seem happy to monopolise

Q. Don't consultants survive by charging a fee for their advice. And isn't that something that's offered for free with a dealer?

just wondering, that's all

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Hex Spurt
Hmm...another 'cake and eat it' enthusiast.
So, is Right Note an internet only supplier, or one of those 'dealers' they you don't use but whose time you seem happy to monopolise

Hex,

I'll think you'll find Jermery (Right Note) doesn't charge for advice, just the products, Henry T will be able to answer this more accurately as he has dealings with the said Gentleman

 

[PBirkett]

Originally posted by blakeaudio
frankly with forums like this enabling people to share information / opinion and increasingly even listen to kit, i think that dealers days are numbered.

That may well be the case, but its a bad thing IMHO, especially if it comes to buying new kit. If the difficulties I have experienced when setting up a headfi rig are anything to go by, then it can only be a bad thing. Most of the stuff I have wanted has only been available on the net, and going off peoples opinions is dodgy to say the least. Everyone has their own biases and for whatever reason, some opinions simply are not accurate, or as is more often the case, one persons idea of good may be different to another.

Not a good thing at all, IMHO.

 

[wadia-miester]

Yes Nick is a true gent

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by PBirkett
That may well be the case, but its a bad thing IMHO, especially if it comes to buying new kit. If the difficulties I have experienced when setting up a headfi rig are anything to go by, then it can only be a bad thing. Most of the stuff I have wanted has only been available on the net, and going off peoples opinions is dodgy to say the least. Everyone has their own biases and for whatever reason, some opinions simply are not accurate, or as is more often the case, one persons idea of good may be different to another.

Not a good thing at all, IMHO.

Couldn't agree with you more. Without access to dealers how are you going to get to hear the kit? Sure - if you looking to buy a £5k amp, you might have a chance of the manufacturer coming and giving you a demo, or they may have a showroom you can travel to - but what if you have 2 or 3 amps you want to dem - you'll most likely want to do a side by side demo - that'd be impossible.

The problem gets worse if we look at the lower end of the market. If we use Steve for an example. He will be doing home dems or will get people to his new showroom. His prices may have come down, but if his offering were in say the £500 to £1k region, it strikes me as unlikely that personal home dems would be viable for him.

Steve, I'm sure your products are excellent value , but they are pretty high end. If you had a budget setup, would I be right in saying it may not be worth your while to come and visit me in Nottingham (taking a day to do it probably plus petrol) on the chance that I might like them enough to write a cheque, if that cheque were only going to be for a grand rather than 5 ?? A much bigger risk for you, I'd have thought. I might be a complete timewaster - the margin on a £5k product might make it worth the risk, the margin on a £1k product probably wouldn't.

I could come and visit your showroom its true, but Surrey's a fair old drive from Nottingham and whilst I'd almost certainly be more likely to do it if I had £5k to spend, I'd be less inclined if I were only spending (risking?) £1k.

Strikes me that if dealers go to the wall you'll be left with a very restricted choice of product in between mass market jap stuff and real high end specialist stuff. If all that's left of dealerships in the middle is Sevenoaks and their ilk, all that would be available in between would be same old, same old.

Do you fancy a world where the only amps you could buy for £800 were a choice between MF, Cyrus, Rotel and Roksan?

Would any of you buy stuff in the £500 to say £2500 bracket, unheard off the internet, based purely on a magazine or forum members recommendation?

Because without small dealers (whether shop based or home based - they are dealers all the same), love em or loathe em , these could one day be your only options.

 

[Hex Spurt]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Hex,

I'll think you'll find Jermery (Right Note) doesn't charge for advice, just the products, Henry T will be able to answer this more accurately as he has dealings with the said Gentleman

Precisely my point, WM. His dealer margin includes an element to cover the cost of his time to talk to potential customers; even those who then later decide to go buy on the net.

With all due respect to Right Note, that business isn't a true consultancy, because if it were then I suspect blakeaudio's conversation would have been very short indeed. Maybe something like this...
"You want to discuss some Hi-Fi. OK, my rate is £50 per hour for consultation. Shall we set a date? Hello, hello??"
"brrrrrrrrrrrrrr"


PBirkett makes a good point, to which I would add that in the race to save a few quid today the long term objective gets forgotten.

In the process we end up forever swapping and 'upgrading' when a few well guided choices could have saved so much time, effort and money. This isn't a new phenomenon. Some of you may recall the quote that starts...
For the want of a nail, the shoe was lost. and has been paraphased that in the end the war was lost all to save a penny on a nail. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Hex

 

[sanj]

Good thread!

So how many folks are guilty of sourcing components via forums/reviews/net etc, tracking it down at a dealer, having a good 'ol listen, and then buying it cheaper new or s/h via the net/classifieds?
Of course it's not always possible to do this all the time.

Though I found out one dealer advertising a used pair of speakers on the web, but didn't let me demo them in the shop. Audio-T, OTH, were fine about this, (and I bought them)

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by sanj

So how many folks are guilty of sourcing components via forums/reviews/net etc, tracking it down at a dealer, having a good 'ol listen, and then buying it cheaper new or s/h via the net/classifieds?

If I found someone doing that sanj, I'd probably get a couple of my mates to pay the time wasting c*nt (or TWC in retail speak) a visit and smash his little pride and joy to pieces

You either buy and sell on the internet and take the risk that you might not like it at home, or you buy from an old style dealer (and take the risk that you might not like it at home!) It is an immoral individual who mixes both for his own gain.

 

[julian2002]

if you buy mail order you have 7 days to return the goods FOR WHATEVER REASON by law.
it may be nice to tie this into the gregory thread by having smaller hi-fi manufacturers set up bakeoffs or demos or have people invite manufacturers to bakeoffs. certainly there are a few 'tame' manufacturers here already but it would be cool to have more.
closest was chris's beer and pizza tube bakeoff with a bunch of wad tube gear. i'd never have heard it otherwise and i'm glad i did.
cheers


julian

 

[blakeaudio]

Hmm...another 'cake and eat it' enthusiast.

both my amp and my pre were bought brand spanking new, by finding the relevent manufacturer / distributor for what i was looking for.

So, is Right Note an internet only supplier, or one of those 'dealers' they you don't use but whose time you seem happy to monopolise

the right note was someone who i spoke with. i never actually bought anything from him. all i will say is that from an initial inquiry, he called me back repeatedly and offered plenty of advice.

it just happens that by that time i had decided to go in a different direction. as far as i'm aware, the right note doesn't have a website.

Q. Don't consultants survive by charging a fee for their advice. And isn't that something that's offered for free with a dealer?

i'm sure that they will end up being paid for that advice, just like people pay for architects or engineers. maybe there will be an increase in advice from knowledgeable people.


oh, and also i think the technically correct expression is to... eat you cake and have it too... as if you have it, of course you can eat it.

 

[FluffUser]

I think ebay should also be mentioned as it's changed the Hi-Fi market for me.

It's made the long-distance secondhand hi-fi market a reasonable risk. Sure you get timewasters and con sellers, but the feedback system helps to make those easier to spot. Plus the risk is reasonably good if you are prepared to travel to collect for cash subject to a quick audition.

I guess I'm the sort of person that begrudges first-year depreciation more than I appreciate having something brand new and shiny (for just a few months).

I considered using a BADA dealer again for a recent speaker upgrade, but decided to go secondhand, treating it as an extended home trial, after which I wouldn't lose much to sell on again if I didn't enjoy them.

I don't think I ended up with the perfect speakers for me and my room. But then would I have got those from a BADA demos and a few home trials?, even with spending a bit more? I assume I probably got overal better quality with what I was prepared to spend.

Before this I assume dealers made some income on trade-ins, people only sold locally or just left old stuff in boxes in the loft (as I did).

regards,
Rob.

 

[blakeaudio]

Originally posted by Hex Spurt

With all due respect to Right Note, that business isn't a true consultancy

my point was that he suggested items that he did not have, but could source. basically a dealer, without ties to just a few manufacturers. i do believe the uk government passed legislation regarding the auto trade to enforce a similar result....

and incidentally i have explained elsewhere how i came to decide upon my equipment, but i will say it again, only the cd player was demoed from a dealer and this was a straight shoot out. i did buy the wadia from the dealer whence it came.

 

[merlin]

Good point, the internet has certainly opened up the used market for a lot of people. It has clearly been noticed by the dealerships.

If you read the Audio Salon ad on the inside front page of HFN, you'd see just how concerned they are. Concerned enough to start scaremongering and spouting bs regarding grey imports and reliability.

I guess they are only trying to protect their livelihood but still, it's sad to see falshoods creaping in. Haven;'t they got anything else to offer?

 

[Dev]

Originally posted by merlin
If I found someone doing that sanj, I'd probably get a couple of my mates to pay the time wasting c*nt (or TWC in retail speak) a visit and smash his little pride and joy to pieces

You either buy and sell on the internet and take the risk that you might not like it at home, or you buy from an old style dealer (and take the risk that you might not like it at home!) It is an immoral individual who mixes both for his own gain.

Just out of curiosity, how will you find out his/her address? Of course you know you're always welcome round our place

I do agree with you and Paul, it's grossly unfair and does hurt the small dealers the most.

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by Uncle Ants
The problem gets worse if we look at the lower end of the market. If we use Steve for an example. He will be doing home dems or will get people to his new showroom. His prices may have come down, but if his offering were in say the £500 to £1k region, it strikes me as unlikely that personal home dems would be viable for him.

Steve, I'm sure your products are excellent value , but they are pretty high end. If you had a budget setup, would I be right in saying it may not be worth your while to come and visit me in Nottingham (taking a day to do it probably plus petrol) on the chance that I might like them enough to write a cheque, if that cheque were only going to be for a grand rather than 5 ?? A much bigger risk for you, I'd have thought. I might be a complete timewaster - the margin on a £5k product might make it worth the risk, the margin on a £1k product probably wouldn't.

You've made some fair points Uncle Ants. It would be difficult to arrange home demos for products at the budget end of the market. At the moment it's not a problem (for me). My speakers are still relatively expensive and I'm happy to give home demos, especially to people who have already heard the products.

I do plan to bring out some less expensive offerings - Nonsuch 2 and Nonsuch 1s for example. For the Nonsuch 1s, home demo would probably not be economical. I do offer a 3 week money-back trial for my products and any manufacturer selling directly will probably have to do likewise.

I agree that there is a continuing need for dealers. The problem is that with the increase in Internet shopping, many may not survive. However, those that offer a good service will still attract the custom of many who are either decent enough or sufficiently scared of the wrath of Merlin.

 

[Uncle Ants]

Re: dealers

Originally posted by NeYank
My only heartburn with sevenoaks is not the lineup. I think MF and Monitor audio as well as Roksan sound excellent, and do not cost an arm and a leg.

True enough, but it would be a grey, grey world if that were all there is, don't you think?

My heartburn is the seemingly utter lack of real knowledge the staff has, and the poor listening setup some of the venues have. IE: no listening room at all.

Not a good thing. Basically they aren't a whole lot better than a sort of upmarket Dixon's. Their business is retail, not hifi.

I know a lot of people that won't or quit going to many high end boutiques because of the attitude.

I will go where I must if I need to have a listen. I will simply ignore the staff if I have to.

And I'd sympathise - the Internet, ebay, forums etc. have without a doubt had a big impact on this fairly small market and dealers are going to have to adapt and change for the better if they are to survive. The sniffy attitude of some of these places is one of things that'll have to change. If they don't though I really think you could see the end of them, the sad thing about that is I suspect it will also mean and end to a large number of more intersting manufacturers in that middle part of the market, which would be a very sad thing.

 

[technobear]

Originally posted by Uncle Ants
Do you fancy a world where the only amps you could buy for £800 were a choice between MF, Cyrus, Rotel and Roksan?

What, no Arcam? Nightmare! :yikes:

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by technobear
What, no Arcam? Nightmare! :yikes:

Oh no doubt they'd make it through the net

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by 7_V

I do plan to bring out some less expensive offerings - Nonsuch 2 and Nonsuch 1s for example. For the Nonsuch 1s, home demo would probably not be economical. I do offer a 3 week money-back trial for my products and any manufacturer selling directly will probably have to do likewise.

I agree that there is a continuing need for dealers. The problem is that with the increase in Internet shopping, many may not survive. However, those that offer a good service will still attract the custom of many who are either decent enough or sufficiently scared of the wrath of Merlin.

Well that's what's worrying me I guess, if it is true that dealers are having such a hard time and the dealer networks disappear - manufacturers like yourself may have so much difficulty marketing and distributing the more affordable ranges of products that you simply give up on that market and just concentrate on the hi end/hi margin part of the market. This could leave a sort of midrange wilderness dominated by the few makers with the marketing clout to convince Sevenoaks and co that they are a safe bet.

Lets hope some of the dealers out there wise up. I've had no problem at all with dealers - so long as they have given me good service (no matter how big or small the item I was purchasing) and haven't treated me with disdain. I have no problem paying a small premium for good advice and service.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Dev
Just out of curiosity, how will you find out his/her address?

I'd tempt him back to the shop with a phone call to tell him of something amazing he must hear (all good retailers take numbers)

Then I'd have him followed on his way home. Simple.

My favourite would be to put posters up around his neighbourhood exposing him as a paedophile and dawbing the front of his newly discovered residence with the word "Nonce"

Good job I'm not in retail anymore really.