ATC SCM50 measured performance vs. high quality studio monitors

[The Devil]

Its not rubbish mate. EVERYONES hearing is different from birth (even before you factor in environment. Next youll be telling us all our todgers are the same length.). Sorry but thats the FACTS. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.

Well are you?

If you are trying to annoy me, you will fail because I don't take people like you seriously.

Everyone's hearing is, by and large, pretty similar. Some people are afflicted by hyperacusis. A career as an audio reviewer requires no special skills.

 

[anon_bb]

Avantgarde are extremely directional also. dynamic fast sounding and a lot of detail but again outmatched by the mb2 in those respects with none of the hassle and much better bass.

Nothing wrong with flat black monoliths ;-) Are they covered with runes and moan with an unholy joy? Did you get to hear the dreadnoughts?

I had thought about different HF units as well. The custom volt radial bass driver and pmc midrange probbaly are a lot better than the stock tweeter. What about something with a diamond tweeter or ribbon / electrostatic? Where do you stand with super tweeters? I would mox and match both room treatment and dispersion control - how is the latter best achieved?

 

[anon_bb]

Peoples hearing is largely similiar - peoples perception and the developmental neural wiring is not. Especially relevent for hearing.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Avantgarde are extremely directional also.

I call that "very good dispersion control". It is actually a positive attribute, but the wide drive unit separation creates problems.

Nothing wrong with flat black monoliths ;-) Are they covered with runes and moan with an unholy joy?

Only if playing Hawkwind through them....

Did you get to hear the dreadnoughts?

Yes, I liked them notably better than the equivalent UREI Model (forgot the number)....

I had thought about different HF units as well. The custom volt radial bass driver and pmc midrange probbaly are a lot better than the stock tweeter.

The Volt Radials are seriously good, PMC manages to get transmission lines to ALMOST work, which makes for decent bass.

MY PERSONAL CHOICE for a midrange in this kind of context would be a 4" Diaphragm JBL compression driver, effectively "inverted" (that is with rear chamber removed and in effect used as 4" midrange dome) used in a shallow 15 - 18" diameter tractix waveguide. But this costs a lot more than the mid PMC uses and needs a lot of work to get right.

What about something with a diamond tweeter or ribbon / electrostatic?

Ribbons may pose a problem integrating well, the dispersion pattern is way different to the midrange dome. Any Dome/Inverted Dome of really outstanding quality will work well, I choose the Focal as being still affardable and miles ahead of all these softmouth jokes sold as tweeters.

Where do you stand with super tweeters?

I use them. At exhibitions my wife and I do a party-trick, syncronised covering/uncovering the supertweeters with our hands. Around halve the people hear the difference even blind. Most counterintuitively the Supertweeters seme to have a lot of impact also on lower midrange (and horror of all technocrates) the bass. No idea why, they just do.

I would mox and match both room treatment and dispersion control - how is the latter best achieved?

Dispersion control without frequency response alteration means an absortive mask, like on BBC monitors, around the driver, for the midrange it would have to be quite deep to help, the other is to get commercial or home-made waveguides (others call the horn) up to the edge of the cabinet, but you do get a boost in a certain frequency range from that, only a few db, but enough to alter the X-Over requirements drastically.

Ciao T

 

[bottleneck]

bbv - you can see the tannoys in the link I posted.

When you look at the price Tannoy charge for a pair of GRF's, those £1300 Tannoys (with 15" dual concentrics) look like a real steal to me. I mean, what do they have to compete with at that sort of price? just girly-sized midfi nonsense.

TBH I find the dual concentrics tweeter doesnt extend quite aswell as many others, but you could always suppliment it with a supertweeter.

I like the look of them in their 'business like' appearance



PS
Bub theres no need to throw stones at everybody that uses valve amps just because you're miffed at Thorsten!

 

[hifikrazy]

If you are trying to annoy me, you will fail because I don't take people like you seriously.

Everyone's hearing is, by and large, pretty similar. Some people are afflicted by hyperacusis. A career as an audio reviewer requires no special skills.

Thats funny cos i certainly dont take you seriously.

When did i start talking about audio reviewers? I never said it did. I merely said there was variation in both hearing abilty and also in aural perception. Hearing like all our other senses isnt just dependent on the mechanics but also on the interpretation by the brain.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

TBH I find the dual concentrics tweeter doesnt extend quite aswell as many others, but you could always suppliment it with a supertweeter.

Their HF is about par with many softdome tweeters, i agree they can use a bit of help way up top, always used my Tannoys (15" Monitor Red) with supertweeters and EVEN with subs, that given the ability of the 15" to be jolly flat in room 30Hz-16KHz would possibly suggest I'm bat and elephant eared at the same time....

I like the look of them in their 'business like' appearance

My wife takes quite a bit of exception to "their 'business like' appearance".

So for now the compromise is a Dual 12" active sub, 8" Wideband units on acrylic baffles and suitable supertweeters.

Bub theres no need to throw stones at everybody that uses valve amps just because you're miffed at Thorsten!

Actually, there is a logic and methode in that gentlemans (no, strike that actually) approach, it seems to be based on the "NIH" Syndrom, all is good as long as it's british, he could probably even stomach a Valve Amp, as long as it was a Quad 2-40.

Ciao T

 

[The Devil]

Bub theres no need to throw stones at everybody that uses valve amps just because you're miffed at Thorsten!

I am not miffed at anyone - just putting some of the advice given by this alleged "expert" into context.

 

[anon_bb]

dispersion control

True - but maybe a bit too much in this instance and as you say - to that degree it makes integration difficult - presumeably due to acting less like a single point source with the extreme directionality.

I guess "the wizard blew his horn" could refer to you and your horn loudspeakers ;-).

I have heard ribbons before - everything sounded out of step but they were those awful lumley lampros speakers so I was wondering if anyone else had done better with this problem.

I have theories about ST and transient edge detection - but thats already been dealt with on another thread. Do you dem at shows? Are you actually a "shop" as such or is it some less formal arrangement?

I think I have seen those kind of masks on the RA website - bit of a ripoff but I get what you mean.

What does anyone think of the tannoy td12s?

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Do you dem at shows? Are you actually a "shop" as such or is it some less formal arrangement?

3D Sonics is a pretty official outfit, but I am actually merely the greasemonkey of that outfit, I leave marketing etc to others. If RealHi-Fi.com exhibit themselves I tend to be around, as usually enough of my stuff is on show and I actually do enjoy shows (unlike the business end of 3DS).

At home it's just my place, no shop, except my workshop.

I have my fingers in a few pies, the ones I can I mention are S&B/MusicFirst Audio, DiyHiFisupply.com and via RealHi-Fi.com 3DS/3DA/Shanling.

A system review that included several pieces of stuff in whose genesis/modification I had more than a little stake (except speakers - though I suggested them as good idea to snag the distribution) is posted on the RealHi-Fi.com website:

http://www.realhi-fi.com/pdf/hfcreview2.pdf

I think the system there represents quite well what I am after and what I "stand for", in terms of (3D) sonics.

What does anyone think of the tannoy td12s?

Too comprimised acoustically in order to make them pretty and more then a little (IMHO) overpriced, compared to Tannoy Pro Gear. If you must have the looks and you don't mind the long green, not the worst you could make.

Ciao T

 

[anon_bb]

I quite liked the td12s. But too many limitations as you say. Are you going to the hifi show in Sept?

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

Bub, please don't take this the wrong way, but you do get very absolutist when someone criticieses.

it may work for you, naim atc, mana, that's fine.

now I like the naim sound, but its odd you say atc are the most accurate, but I STILL STILL haven't had an accurate def. of accurate!!

please all furnish me with an agreed standard, then we can debate.

even so you have 'accurate' speakers, and 'coloured' but very good cd and preamp, how do you square that? it strikes me as odd to say the least, to say my spks are bill cos they are accurate, and then colour them with some of the most coloured but enjoyable electronics.

now naim amps are a 30 yr old circuit, they ain't accurate, there are technically miles better, its dead simple circuit, measures kak, but I like what they do...that's what matters.

so it SOUNDS one of the best, but objectivel its crap.


I had the scm50s., they made music quite enjoyable.

they took some getting used to.

I found them very hard to get in the right position for them.

The thing that struck me was the lack of bass for the size, I carried both upstairs, heaviest speaker I have done, and bass was non descript for the size/weight, dreadfully disappointing, and by the thiele simulations, the 100s and 150s are little different.

the whole point of that size is to get bass, to have to use a sub with them totally defies the point.

if you enjoy your atc's, James that's great, but do make a difference of your best against others best,

you do need to back up some of your objective claims tho' vs personal opinion.

if thorsten can prove atc's aren't accurate, surely that's not to be denied?

it doens't mean to say you have to dislike them tho', you can still like em.



we do all like different presentations of our music, I have argued convicingly that if you like the sound, that's all that really matters.

 

[merlin]

Hi,

Hmmm, around 4 point something percent 2nd and 3 point something 3rd for 90db/1m @ 40Hz? And you call that "good"? I call that (without all the tedium of converting percent to absolute and sumsquare addition etc to get THD) eyeballadded 5% THD or -26db. I don't have the Mag at hand, but 50Hz was not much better.
Ciao T

Thorsten,

There you go exaggerating again in order to prove your point.

It was 3.3% at 40hz/2nd and 2.2%/3rd. Oh and it was substantially better at 50hz.

The measurements show +/- 3db from 40hz to 20khz. The measurements were taken at 0.25m at a level equivalent to 90db at 1m.

Horizontal off axis behavior showed the roll off to be consistant and smooth.

The staff writer describes these as " a very fine set of measurements" Now either he is lying, or he is referencing them against measurements taken of competing loudspeakers in the same circumstances.

Regardless, you do seem to be exaggerating your case in an attempt to discredit ATC. Remember my only issue with you is with regards to the ATC's bass performance - I fully agree that the midrange could be improved as I have indicated. But I bet that to most ATC users, this is of little importance - they are too busy getting off on the music.

 

[The Devil]

... 'coloured' but very good cd and preamp, how do you square that? it strikes me as odd to say the least, to say my spks are bill cos they are accurate, and then colour them with some of the most coloured but enjoyable electronics.

I really can't be arsed to discuss it with you. I know how accurate the CDP, pre and speakers are because of an acoustic performance which was recorded in my living room with me present, then played back through my system, both via CD and direct from the mixing desk.

End of, as they say.

 

[merlin]

Hi,

With a pair of Visaton Subs or a pair of Rel Strata's the bass goes down well enough to allow a seamless match and a nice supertweeter just adds a the right amount of air and defintion on cymbals etc. to turn "great midrange, no low bass, soso and subdued treble" into "WOW".

Anyway, that's my take.

Ciao T

Christ Thorsten!

Have a look at the distortion figures for the Rel subs you recommend
here

30% THD? You really are a complex individual aren't you? It seems to me that you have a massive preference for controlled dispertion loudspeakers, preferring to hear less of the room's influence on your playback. But some of your recommenations simply don't stand up to scrutiny IMO - the above being a classic example.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Thorsten,

There you go exaggerating again in order to prove your point.

Nope, I did not have the Mag available, I wrote from memory.

It was 3.3% at 40hz/2nd and 2.2%/3rd. Oh and it was substantially better at 50hz.

You are correct, 3.3 & 2.2%, which sums with the higher order components to 4.1% THD @ 40Hz or -28db, instead of -26db.

Looking at the graphs, the 50Hz distortion at an SPL 6db less than the comparisons are around 6db less than at 40Hz or or around 2% (-34db) but as noted, at low frequencies due to excursion THD goes pretty lineary with level (check the graphs from the earlier linked NRC measurements), so 6db more SPL = 6db more THD and thus we can with a reasonable certainty predict - 28db THD (appx 4%) @ 50Hz/96db/1m for the ATC, so my notes where slightly off the mark, but within a reasonable error and my main point about comparisons with the other speakers is still born out.

The measurements show +/- 3db from 40hz to 20khz. The measurements were taken at 0.25m at a level equivalent to 90db at 1m.

Yes, with heavy smoothing and more to the point, instead of common narrowband deviations around a "flat" mean we find significant trends of depression and boost, which will cause a reliably audible deviation from "flat".

BTW, my own reading of the graph as "+1db/-5db" says the same thing, gives and actually wider bandwidth, but clearly illustrates my point about the non-flat response. Comnparison to the NRC measurements and those by MEG (all with minimal smoothing) is advisable for reference.

Horizontal off axis behavior showed the roll off to be consistant and smooth.

I would not call a tolerance field between 200Hz and 20KHz of overall 9db with a flat unattenuated response to 4KHz and then a fairly drastic attenuation of 6db over 2 octaves consistent.

If you do, well I don't know.

The staff writer describes these as " a very fine set of measurements" Now either he is lying, or he is referencing them against measurements taken of competing loudspeakers in the same circumstances.

I have read the ad copy, oops editorial content, too. I can only conclude (especially referenced to some of the measurements provided earlier) that the comparison standard for "fine measurements" was set at the lowest common denominator, not in comparsion to the state of the art.

As you point out, much is intent. My intent in reading the measurements was to point out that in terms of measurements at least there are more "accurate" Monitors than ATC, which makes their marketing claims which some people with more enthusiam than knowledge have proclaimed in the pages of this board as aboslute and dogmatic truth cannot stand up in reality.

If only ONE speaker could be found that would measure in ONE single aspect better than ATC my case would have to be considered proven beyond reasonable doubt, considering that ATC's measurements are far from fine when compared to the AVERAGE high performance loudspeaker of similar format and that in ALL ASPECTS, I think any case of "ATC makes the most accurate monitors money can buy" can be safely dismissed as belonging into the realm of advertising sci-fi with very little relation to reality.

Care to disagree, in that case illustrate how ATC's claims are true.

Ciao T

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Are you going to the hifi show in Sept?

Only as paying visitor, this year. Maybe I'll do the spring show myself, the big one is too stressy and I'm not at my best due to dayjob related stress as it is.

Ciao T

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Have a look at the distortion figures for the Rel subs you recommend here
[/QUOTE]

Minor note, I did NOT recommend the Sub whose performance is evaluated in the link. I recommended the REL Strata (to be precise Strata III which was what I tested as a pair), which is much larger and uses a 10" cast frame Volt Driver, not a stamped frame cheapass china 8" piece of junk. The Strata III is still no max SPL champion, but offers a much better transient response then vented systems.

Not every sub with REL written on it is worth having.

Not every brand mention I make consists of a blanket recommendation for all products from that brand. Most Tannoy Speakers are emphatically NOT recommended, most REL Subs are emphatically NOT recommended, even most MEG Monitors are NOT recommended for domestic or studio farfield use.

So, get off it already.

some of your recommenations simply don't stand up to scrutiny IMO - the above being a classic example.

Hmm, I contend my recommendations do stand up to scrutiny, if you realise that I do not recommend Brands (eg. Beauhorn) but specific Products (eg. Beauhorn Virtuoso).

Ciao T

PS - my recommendation of the Rel Strata III X 2 (or Visaton Sub X 2), Beauhorn Virtuoso pair and Visaton Supertweeters was for a domestic music system, not as accurate studio monitor, surprisingly my friend felt they where much more true to the recording than his then setup.

 

[merlin]

Hi Thorsten,

I'm sorry but experience shows the ST series of Rel subwoofers to be very poor below 50hz objectively and if you are claiming the units are so different, you may well be interested in this quote from a HFi Choice comparison..

But therein lays the Achilles heel of the more expensive Strata 5, since the Stampede is virtually as good, but more compact and a dozen CD's-worth cheaper.

Sorry but all Rel subs seem to exhibit considerable amounts of distortion (even the Studio and Stentor). Far higher than any ATC to my knowledge. Is it possible that you are partial to a dollop of 2nd harmonic - given your predeliction for SET's?

 

[oedipus]

The measurements show +/- 3db from 40hz to 20khz. The measurements were taken at 0.25m at a level equivalent to 90db at 1m.

You're telling us that the HFN data was gathered at just 25cm???

Then it is near field data and will have to have been massaged in some way to generate what Thorsten is representing as comparable with a 2m free-field response (from either MEG or soundstage).