why cant someone organise a test and we can all meet and stop the nasty " I must win the argument " bullshit and see for ourselves who is correct? all we would need is the wires and our ears... and the sceptics to agree that they would be honest as would the believers....I guess that the sceptics have more to lose and they could easily "blanket" disagree with all tests, whereas the believers cant blag it....they have to get it right to be successful. This tips the scales in the favour of the sceptics.....All the science in the world means nothing if you dont believe in science does it? try telling a jehovas witness that the world was evolutionary, or a Scientologist! Science is only believable, when people believe, and clearly many do not believe the science. The debate is polarized .I personally, think I hear a difference, but I would rather know if I was incorrect and could be proved wrong...I like facts that are tangible, not passed around a forum by those proporting to be knowledgeable or wise ( on either side). So, how can we set a time and date and who will host? i cannot for baby reasons and a deep seated hatred of hif on my partners behalf...I will willingly come along and give an honest reply to the question of whether differences are heard. however, I deny the cable sceptics the right to start measuring and piddling about with measurements....let it be a test of the ears...i couldnt honestly be bothered to listen to a load of garble about this value and that value and all that "get out of jail" rubbish..Either they sound different or they dont....That isnt to say that we believers have to identify a cable, or it s properties....that is a tall ask, under pressure and with many switches of wires. the test should be do the cables sound different....someone mentioned on here an amp where you can switch between cables instantly...that sounds the way to go... So who can host and when? Please dont clog up the next post, with mumbo about why this needs to be measured, or wont work.....do we have a meet or dont we? I can do New year....anyone else?
Cable Happy.
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Ah. So people don't believe in science now and post offensive comments instead.
Have the scientists got it all wrong? Or just the bit about wanky wires?
Have the scientists got it all wrong? Or just the bit about wanky wires?
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
Unfortunately, we would need more than the wires and our ears.
We'd need to measure all of the cables first, and make sure they are electrically similar enough.
To please everyone, it would have to be a DBT done properly too. Beyond the whit of zerogain I fear.
We'd need to measure all of the cables first, and make sure they are electrically similar enough.
To please everyone, it would have to be a DBT done properly too. Beyond the whit of zerogain I fear.
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I think certain members are thick as pig shit and f***ing clueless about audio, but I wouldn't dream of saying who they are.
But that is exactly the point, not all speaker cables measure the same, and in the audio retail business this wide off the mark does not equal faulty to the consumer, we have no consumer standard of measurement for cable, unlike some of the papers you see compairing like for like and exclaiming all who hear are blind. Indeed it may well be why some sound so different? I do not need to read the previous threads because its not me who is disagreeing with them all, all I am doing is putting a different side of the coin in. Cables that measure differently and are of dis-similar characteristics have a valid arguement for sounding different.
Why should I re-read various articles to find out what happens to the characteristics of solid core cable which is spaced compaired to woven?
I am asking you what you think. I know its not desirable and detrimental, can you tell me why?
Should we all base everything on a narrow band of similar cables with similar characteristics and base everything on an ideal world which completely agrees with every favourable side of your arguement about LCR, in a world where there are thousands of cables with varying LCR measurements? If so, could someone tell all the cable manufacturers?
You are having a go at a subject, and seem to be-little anyone who says cables do not all sound the same, because you are basing your argument on what you read and agree with and on cables with similar characteristics.
An example, early Naim amplifiers, cable compatability. Regardless of who what why, it exists, because speaker cables differ in construction and therefor measurement. regadless of what we think of early Naim amps, they are cable fussy because some exotic speaker cables send them to the funny farm. Should we conclude thatcables should not make a difference and believe there is no smoke?
Are the two cables I pointed out the measurements of within those parameters? They don't look it? For the record cable A is Kimber 8tc, and cable B is Audio Note SP.
If someone had came on this thread and stated he prefered his new Kimber to his old Audio note cable, he would have been labeled, and there is my point.
There is a difference between arguing about the worth.
There is a difference between arguing about two near identical cables.
There is a difference when arguing about two completely different cables of completely different materials and construction.
All the above points seem to come under the same argument though. So person A gets labeled as person B and person D.
I don't quite know where I come in, or my own views though.
I think certain members are thick as pig shit and f***ing clueless about audio, but I wouldn't dream of saying who they are.
You should, but then again, on what basis would you have based that opinion on? And what parameters does it take into acount?
Oh come onDo some reading before posting please.
Let's clarify for you. In all probability 90-95% of cables are electrically similar. It's fairly simple to make a cable that does what is required of an audio cable. Just because one claims to have two strands of Elephant cock smeared in Mr P's sacred sperm does not make it in any way different elecrically speaking. All we care about are inductance, capacitance and resistance.
No they don't. Nor do listening rooms.
Link to definitive evidence showing audible differences then? You can't. There isn't any.
Well Russ's manager was gobsmacked when he couldn't pick out the Kimber Silver Spunk Strand under controlled conditions. I suspect you too would be astonished at the power of your imagination were you only to test it
Banpe2006.
I think the way certain members post on here is similar to the attitude of some of the cap wearing scum, that society has to endure within their communities.
Stereo MC.
I think certain members are thick as pig shit and f***ing clueless about audio, but I wouldn't dream of saying who they are.
:ffrc:
Why do we need to measure them.
Unless I've read all this wrong Stereo Mic, and his congregation of loyal worshippers, seem to be stating as scientific fact (rightly or wrongly, I'm not passing judgement either way) that all cables on the market will sound identical, and even if they have very slightly different LCR then any differences won't be audible (unless designed so badly that something is obviously wrong with them, which is presumably not the case with most of the big name makers, or Zanash and co).
I don't even know what LCR is and have no interest at all in knowing - but for the sake of the argument (assuming it's going to keep on running) can Stereo Mic just confirm that it is his stance that all cables, whether the freebies you get with a cheap DVD player, or any cables from Nordost, Cardas, Stereovox, Zanash, etc all sound identical and that it would be impossible for anyone to discern between them in one of these double blind tests.
I'm afraid that would prove nothing!
You would have some people claiming they could hear astonishing differences, whilst others hear no difference at all!
This debate will never be resolved
Bob McC
living the life of Riley
You'd never get samples from the manufacturers who sell via ZG anyway.
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Sadly true - they keep avoiding the issue.
UnclePuncle,
If you read previous threads you will find out what science teaches us about audio cables. You will find out what my position is, and that of any number of other contributors. Have a look for LCR. Good luck. I really can't be bothered repeating this ad infinitum because there are some utter imbeciles (or as Romy would say "audio morons") here who still don't seem to understand.
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
That's where my opinion differs.
Not to pick on a single manufacturer - but I borrowed about 7 Audioquest interconnects back about 10 years ago.
One sounded different to the other seven. I now know it must have had a noticeably different LCR.
That was my first 'trial' and I've had inumerable trials of all sorts since then.
I've seen different 'sounding' cables by all sorts of companies. I simply don't associate a slight EQ effect with an improvement ... I think it's just a cable manufacturers ''trick'' to change the LCR (either conscious or unconscious in design).
Dev
Moderator
I'm afraid that would prove nothing!
You would have some people claiming they could hear astonishing differences, whilst others hear no difference at all!
This debate will never be resolved
David,
In my opinion, even if 1 person out of a 1000 can identify a cable consistently (say 20 out of 20) then there MUST be a different, even if the 999 cannot hear it. No one is that lucky. First we should find this golden eared person and after beating the crap out of him/her (for not coming forward earlier and letting these arguments go on for so long
) should start to investigate why.However, I agree, the debate will never end.
If one out of a thousand does it that is likely to be just chance. If you have a big enough sample someone will get it all right - you just have to determine if the number that do is significantly higher than random. You can deduce the number using the binomial distribution.
Basic statistics I am afraid.
Basic statistics I am afraid.
I don't beleive so.
(I am not a FANATIC (as you put it) incidentally.....just that some cables have sounded pretty good on my system. Thats hardly fanatical! Not in my book anyway.)
science+statistics can't tell you everything
Dev
Moderator
OK, say 50 out of 50 or a 100 out of a 100. If the sample size (of trials, not participants is large enough it means that that one individual has something that the others does not.
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