Actually it can be denied. People use to think that clearly the world was flat. The right test would have plenty of value. Except to those following the cable religion. Even if a small difference could be found (which I doubt) you would be better spending the money elsewhere by orders of magnitude so why worry.
Cable Happy.
- Thread starter rollo
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2005
- Messages
- 64
- Reaction score
- 0
Banpe2006: Correct. I wish cables did not sound different then I would not have to spend money on anything above a cheapie. But to me, in my system, they do. In fact, to make me part with my money they have an even harder job because dealers' margins are greater for cables and I want great value for money.
It is possible that the Zanash cables in your system sound better because they errr....are. All this AB and ABX, delusional views, snake oil; etc. obscures the simple observation that they sound different cause they sound different. Not imagined differences but real differences. I am sure you would like to keep your money in your wallet (wouldn't we all). But every time you listen to that bloody Zanash cable it sounds different and better.
If you don't believe they are the same then I can devise a nice test to confuse the hell out of you so you can't tell the differences between cables (or even amps). I'll call it psuedoscientific and put some wonderful stats on it and then beat you to death with my stunning logic. AND then when you listen again in a 'normal' scenario and hear the differences you must chant 'snake-oil' 'can't hear you', 'can't hear you', because it won't go away.
It is possible that the Zanash cables in your system sound better because they errr....are. All this AB and ABX, delusional views, snake oil; etc. obscures the simple observation that they sound different cause they sound different. Not imagined differences but real differences. I am sure you would like to keep your money in your wallet (wouldn't we all). But every time you listen to that bloody Zanash cable it sounds different and better.
If you don't believe they are the same then I can devise a nice test to confuse the hell out of you so you can't tell the differences between cables (or even amps). I'll call it psuedoscientific and put some wonderful stats on it and then beat you to death with my stunning logic. AND then when you listen again in a 'normal' scenario and hear the differences you must chant 'snake-oil' 'can't hear you', 'can't hear you', because it won't go away.
Did you not say you bought large amounts of Townshend Isolda in order to sell it at a profit and use it in your own system? £500 for a 3 metre pair?
That would clearly make you one of the forum's cable 'salesmen'.
Mike staggers back holding his not inconsiderable balls, what a blow, the crowd are on their feet, pandemonium breaks out, is he down?...no,.. wait, he'd stuffed an unopened Tandy loudspeaker design handbook book down his pants, he's only bruised his pride..DING DING! end of round 147.
Wait what's he doing? he's gone over to the bell, he's turning to the judges "if that bell was made of berylium it wouldn't sound so distorted'" he says in a high pitched 0.01% w&f voice, looking confused.
His seconds don't know what to do, they're communicating by pm-surely they can't let this continue, they should step in the ring.
We're now going to a commercial break, back soon for round 148, things are gonna get nasty....
"Do your interconnects let you down...?
good morning Mike
Indeed I am expectant.......but never quite sure of WHAT?!
Like I say, changed can often be RETROGRADE, then you have think what went wrong.....
Then please!!!!! Carry on!!!
Mike, that you think my methods are a liitle adhock is old news, I think?
Auto suggestion.
Thats what your saying....and it can happen. I don't believe it is in my case as like i say, I know my cd collection well enough to know what i usually here....and I can tell when sonic improvements are made.
(I can almost here you groan inwardly!)
I KNOW that not good enough for you...but if i went down the avenue of getting people together from 100/200 miles away every time I did some thing, I'd never get any where. It would alsso be a little heavy on everones time/fuel etc.
I am happy to trust my own ears!
I admire you for your scientific background and knowledge but I just don't have the same resouces
eg expensive testing equipment.
Thats the best I can say for now. However I would add that the methods I amusing are well known methods(but no I don't have scientific papers to hand as proof!!) widely thought of to be influencial on audio equipment.
So, if I can pass on ideas that have worked for me, using inexpensive materials, I feel it is very acceptable to pass them on for other to try?
Indeed I am expectant.......but never quite sure of WHAT?!
Like I say, changed can often be RETROGRADE, then you have think what went wrong.....
Then please!!!!! Carry on!!!
Mike, that you think my methods are a liitle adhock is old news, I think?
Auto suggestion.
Thats what your saying....and it can happen. I don't believe it is in my case as like i say, I know my cd collection well enough to know what i usually here....and I can tell when sonic improvements are made.
(I can almost here you groan inwardly!)
I KNOW that not good enough for you...but if i went down the avenue of getting people together from 100/200 miles away every time I did some thing, I'd never get any where. It would alsso be a little heavy on everones time/fuel etc.
I am happy to trust my own ears!
I admire you for your scientific background and knowledge but I just don't have the same resouces
eg expensive testing equipment.
Thats the best I can say for now. However I would add that the methods I amusing are well known methods(but no I don't have scientific papers to hand as proof!!) widely thought of to be influencial on audio equipment.
So, if I can pass on ideas that have worked for me, using inexpensive materials, I feel it is very acceptable to pass them on for other to try?
Last edited by a moderator:
Exactly....
It seems icredible to me that because one person who hasn't/ can't/whatever discern a difference then the rest of the population can't /mustn't /whatever either!!
eg
Another silly comment
Doubtful, as has been noted before.
Feel free!
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2005
- Messages
- 2,309
- Reaction score
- 0
David, sorry but until you properly test your convictions, you are only making suggestions to people based on your imagination. If they then get some Prap alloy shiney leads through the post having been told on the internet that they will provide greater midrange transparency, the likelyhood is some one else will imagine they do and lose £200. There is plenty of evidence that points to this and to me it is a little irresponsible. If you test this under controlled conditions you will answer the question as to whether you are making a scientific breakthrough once and for all. That would seem to make sense.
But people can make up there own minds on what to spend their money on, just as I do!?
I don't see any thing wrong with that?
edit
"some one else will imagine they do and lose £200"
WHY?
if your refering to petes cables, as ive said before he offers them ona sale or return basis, so how can they losse £200?
ie If the potential buyer agrees with you,he just returns them, surely??
isn't this the point??
I don't see the problem!!!
Last edited by a moderator:
I must say I thought this was partly what an audio forum wa for, for passing on ideas and suggestions....
They may or may not be helpful.
It is up to the individual to decide I think.
eg When I first joined up with zero someone suggested I used N**m equipment . I did, and it wasn't ideal for me. I don't have a problem witht that andcertainly nobody told me I shouldn't!
We'll have to beg to differ on your testing ideas....it won't prove anything!!!
They may or may not be helpful.
It is up to the individual to decide I think.
eg When I first joined up with zero someone suggested I used N**m equipment . I did, and it wasn't ideal for me. I don't have a problem witht that andcertainly nobody told me I shouldn't!
We'll have to beg to differ on your testing ideas....it won't prove anything!!!
Thanks
That at least is a reasonable observation to make.
And you are perfectly right.
sq225917
Exposer of Foo
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2007
- Messages
- 1,514
- Reaction score
- 0
is this still going on? blimey.
can't we all just accept that cables can and do sound different, if only becasue of varying LCR, shielding or whatever and be happy with that. yes some cable manufacturers use psuedo science to make unsuspecting punters think the cables are worth the money, of course in most cases they aren't.
No amount of scientific conjecture can 'disprove' that cables 'can' sound different, maybe they have no measurable difference, but that isn't the same as not sounding different, because the only measurement that really counts is how you interpret what you hear...
can't we all just accept that cables can and do sound different, if only becasue of varying LCR, shielding or whatever and be happy with that. yes some cable manufacturers use psuedo science to make unsuspecting punters think the cables are worth the money, of course in most cases they aren't.
No amount of scientific conjecture can 'disprove' that cables 'can' sound different, maybe they have no measurable difference, but that isn't the same as not sounding different, because the only measurement that really counts is how you interpret what you hear...
michaelab
desafinado
No we cant - other than the very small effects of LCR. Actually science can disprove that cables sound different. If a difference exists it can be measured even if you don't know how to do that currently. Statistical listener tests can still be used in the absence of a measurement to assess whether or not a subjective difference occurs. One only has to consider the effects of medical placebos to realise that interpretation doesn't always count.
Science is the only useful tool here - your viewpoint makes the whole thing into investigation of the paranormal and some act of faith.
Science is the only useful tool here - your viewpoint makes the whole thing into investigation of the paranormal and some act of faith.
larkrise
Sheepdogs prefer red wine
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2005
- Messages
- 735
- Reaction score
- 0
Of course cables sound different. They can and do. Simple as that really.
No we can't otherwise some people won't be able to live anymore or would have immense psychological problems.
No we can't otherwise some people won't be able to live anymore or would have immense psychological problems.
We should however be able to accept that opinions about cables (and supports, and green pens, and CD lathes..) differ and that, since no-one is actually going to die, it's simply not worth getting all het up about.
That's only the case if you equate 'discussion' with 'getting all het up'. The latter attitude rapidly transforms discussion into name-calling.
sq225917
Exposer of Foo
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2007
- Messages
- 1,514
- Reaction score
- 0
the logic being stated is that if science can't prove it,then it must not be so. then you guys back that up with, if science can't prove it isn't so because we can't measure it, then we can statistically eradicate it with testing using real ears, attached to real humans.
that's all great, but what if the act of testing is sufficient to remove a persons perceptability to the effect they would otherwise hear. then you can't measure it, can't test for it, but remain able to hear it.
everyone just assumes there are only two states for the case, off or on, cold or hot, like a lightbulb...
well i disagree, there's a third state, an untestable state, equivalent to a just been turned off lightbulb, still warm enough to burn your hand, but not bright enough to read by.
i firmly believe that differences between cables do exist, not anywhere like you would need to be able to justify good money on them though. just subtle tone controls, unless you have seriosuly weird inteactions in your set up.
that's all great, but what if the act of testing is sufficient to remove a persons perceptability to the effect they would otherwise hear. then you can't measure it, can't test for it, but remain able to hear it.
everyone just assumes there are only two states for the case, off or on, cold or hot, like a lightbulb...
well i disagree, there's a third state, an untestable state, equivalent to a just been turned off lightbulb, still warm enough to burn your hand, but not bright enough to read by.
i firmly believe that differences between cables do exist, not anywhere like you would need to be able to justify good money on them though. just subtle tone controls, unless you have seriosuly weird inteactions in your set up.
- Status
