China?

[7_V]

actually, I will have everyone know I have an old HIFI choice mag, with none other than a pair of 7V speakers in it, reviewed by none other than PMessenger, who gave them a good recommendation, 10 yrs ago. 7V spx are no spring chickens.

what happened with the review BTW, Steve, did they get written up?, the story went dead...
Hope P.M. is recovering after his heart attack.

The Hi-Fi Choice review was September 1990 as I recall. The new range was reviewed in Hi-Fi+ issue 29 - a pdf version is on the web site. Since then there has been some tuning and internal rewiring and the prices have come down. Things are going pretty well at the moment and I'm about to sell a pair of ex-demo Nonsuch 4s - the review samples as used at Bristol and Heathrow - on eBay.

PM seemed recovered when I saw him - nice guy.

BTW: There's a pair of the original System IVs up and running in Shrewsbury.

...and getting back to the thread... so anyway, the call girl was Chinese.

 

[titian]

So to resume up to now:
everybody has heard about these chineese products but there is one member in this forum who bought them!

Hmmmmm, interesting...

cmon who has these products and are you happy with them?

 

[merlin]

Well that's blown my other cover.

A tip here Steve

you don't pay them al that money just to blow your cover

 

[7_V]

cmon who has these products and are you happy with them?

I've bought an Audcom AP-110. It's a valve preamplifier with a remote control driving a motorised pot for the volume. It was modified by some guys in California en-route to me. I'm very happy with it.

I've also bought a YS Audio Concerto and Solo. One of them is a sophisticated valve phono stage and the other is a valve MC amp for it. I haven't really played them much yet. They sounded a little harsh from the off and, apparently, need quite some running in.

In all cases, the service, reliability and communication was good. I didn't have to pay any duty either.

My general advice would be that if you see something you fancy from China and the price is good, first establish some communication with the vendor and, if all looks good, go for it. You can always get it tuned or modded by one of the experts on this forum or elsewhere.

 

[joel]

I don't have any Chinese kit. The reasons for this are:
1) I don't like the voicing on the kit I've heard - it's voiced like wannabee US high-end kit. Not for me I'm afraid.
2) I can buy secondhand Japanese amps for about the same price as new Chinese amps (and I'd happily pay the premium for new if I had to).
3) I really like Accuphase products, their attitude and their servicing. When Accuphase serviced my 12-year old preamp they brought it back to original spec (and is unlikely to need to go back to them for at least another decade or more).
4) Most of the bits I'm looking to change and improve are not made in China.

 

[LiloLee]

Yes, I've bought them.

They are very good value for money, excellent build quality and sound fine to my ears.

Oh and they have Quad on the front. You know part of a Chinese Company that Tenson doesn't think can afford to get an anechoic room and some test equipment because we all know how crap Quad Electrostatics sound.

 

[Tenson]

I said designed in China not built in China... Are the Quads designed in China?

 

[joel]

I said designed in China not built in China... Are the Quads designed in China?

No, but you don't seriously imagine that Chinese people are incapable of building, for instance, an anechoic chamber do you? Or do you imagine that speakers are *so* hard to do only westerners can make them? If this is what you think, you are wrong on both counts.

 

[titian]

it's voiced like wannabee US high-end kit.

:yikes:

:cry:

:duck:

 

[LiloLee]

And of course the Factory run for Quad will do no QA on the speakers by using test equipment etc. on site And why would there be no design input from the Chinese end?

But let's not get stuck on speakers, because they can sound crap no matter where or how they are made.

A lot of Chinese valve amps are based on very standard circuits from up and down the years. One thing that is great about all of this is that they are making amps and the valves which, up to a few years ago, where very rare. WE300b valves go for anything up to £500 each (less if you search around). The Chinese are making a new version for less which sound almost as good (TJ Anode mesh). A lesser known F2a11 valve is extremely rare, but supossed to be the best pentode ever made. You guessed it new amps are coming out based on these valves. This really does make me think the Chinese know their market and are aiming at the enthusiast at one end and the cheap introductory one at the other.

 

[7_V]

No, but you don't seriously imagine that Chinese people are incapable of building, for instance, an anechoic chamber do you? Or do you imagine that speakers are *so* hard to do only westerners can make them? If this is what you think, you are wrong on both counts.

Here, I will take issue.

I'm sure that someone in China is capable of 'designing' a loudspeaker system, such as a conventional two or three way box. It may sound fine too. However, when it comes to original designs such as Peter Walker's electrostatics or even my own Nonsuch 4s, there is no evidence that the Chinese have the capability.

Of course, China may develop innovators and true designers, as Japan has done. Thus far, however, they're copiers.

 

[sideshowbob]

Most hifi "designers" are copiers, surely?

I think it's only a matter of time until the Chinese start making some innovative products. ATM, the innovation of building well-made equipment at a fraction of the price of production in the West is probably innovation enough...

When Red Rose and Vincent were revealed to be Chinese-made products with a price premium there was disquiet. It's very noticeable that Inca Designs' well-reviewed Katana CD player makes no attempt to hide its Chinese origins, perhaps this is a sign that the success of Shanling et al has boosted the audiophile credibility of Chinese products.

China, like the old Soviet Union, has a tradition of state-sponsored excellence in electrical engineering, now they have the desire to market the results of that tradition in the West it's only a matter of time until they hit the mainstream in the same way that Sony and the other Japanese manufacturers did.

-- Ian

 

[bottleneck]

I think when chinese high end speakers start arriving, there will be a lot of people looking like this :O :O :O :O

Im thinking of the quality of woodworking you get from China, and the ridiculously low prices.. Ive seen chinese furniture (you probably have too) thats exquisitly built, decorated and lacquered for the price of a box-kit mdf junk thing from IKEA.

I spoke to an importer of chinese furniture once, who explained the process of getting that deep red laquer that you see sometimes on chinese furniture. It takes skilled craftsmen in China weeks to do , (not to mention the superb engraving on the pieces) and yet the finished items including distributor and retail margins were very low.

I dont think its too hard to imagine the same quality/price of speaker cabinets from China? Im imagining if Sonus Faber's were built/designed in China for example. I bet they could get them on the shelves for 300! (no slur on Sonus, I just picked them because of the nice woodwork of the cabinets)

Im all for dropping euro-centric snobbishness, and buying products that represent great value for money (if back up support and quality control can be shown to be in place)..

 

[LiloLee]

However, when it comes to original designs such as Peter Walker's electrostatics or even my own Nonsuch 4s, there is no evidence that the Chinese have the capability.

I can't believe you have the arrogance to
a) Put yourself in the same stature as PW
b) To say that they Chinese could'nt develop a speaker like your simple linear array. What makes you think you are so unique and that the Chinese don't have the intelligence.

Anyway here you go

stick it in some simple box and job done. Bet I could buy 8 of those Bandor or Jordan units, mount them in a plastic drain pipe and they'd sound similar.

 

[titian]

One point we mustn't though forget. In a few years the prices in china wil raise quite a lot.
A good example we have from India. US companies which have outsourced there IT in India are starting to have problems because each year the salary for the specialists raise about 30-40%. If it continues in this way in about 5 years they will no more be so competitive. At the moment India is starting to outsource there IT to China and other low cost countries!!!

 

[7_V]

I can't believe you have the arrogance to
a) Put yourself in the same stature as PW
b) To say that they Chinese could'nt develop a speaker like your simple linear array. What makes you think you are so unique and that the Chinese don't have the intelligence.

Anyway here you go (image originally included) - stick it in some simple box and job done. Bet I could buy 8 of those Bandor or Jordan units, mount them in a plastic drain pipe and they'd sound similar.

I stand by my post.

I didn't (and don't) put myself on the same stature as PW - read what I wrote again.

I didn't say that the Chinese don't have the intelligence; I said that they haven't yet demonstrated the innovation.

I don't know what that drawing's supposed to be. It's not my design.

You bet you could 'buy 8 of those Bandor or Jordan units, mount them in a plastic drain pipe and they'd sound similar' (and you're calling me arrogant!). Well I bet you couldn't but by all means try.

Seventh Veil's innovation is in the cabinet design. If you are unable to hear the clear differences between my cabinets and plastic drain pipes, try measuring the impedance of the drive units in both enclosures. You'd get the point (impedance measurements give a good indication of cabinet resonances).

When you talk about 'those Bandor or Jordan units' you're reinforcing my point about Chinese innovation. Those units are very innovative UK designs. Rather than innovate, the Chinese bought a number of Bandor units to try to copy them in a cheaper assembly and came up with Tangband. If you've heard them you'll know that there's no comparison.

 

[7_V]

Having thought further, I'd like to add that, in any case, you couldn't copy my speakers using regular Bandor or Jordan drivers, even if you copied the enclosure design. If you used standard Bandor units, you'd get vertical beaming at a level that many would consider to be unacceptable. With Jordan drivers you would also not cover the frequency range required.

 

[joel]

As Sideshow says, there's really very little that's new in audio. Take the example of electrostatic speakers, which were invented in the 1880s, I believe. Admittedly not quite to QUAD standards, but the idea was not new.
China has an incredible history of industrial innovation stretching back to at least the Shang Dynasty (some of the most beautiful and powerful bronze artifacts ever produced) and the intellectual effort and vision required to develop Chinese writing, also dating to approximately the same period, is nothing short of astonishing.
Gunpowder, moveable type, porcelain and much, much more were invented in China. We've been copying these guys' ideas for the best part of a millenium.
And now China is on the move again...
Visit any of the best engineering and research centres in the world, read any of the literature, and you will see the names (along with Japanese) of many Chinese scientists. Whther or not it's worth devoting the best minds to audio is another matter, of course.
As for innovative cabinet design; 7V doesn't export to Japan. Which is probably a good thing, since as I mentioned before, there ain't nothing new in audio... And Bandor and Jordan units are not exactly unknowns in this part of the world.
Anyhow, Titian makes a good point. Chinese competitiveness at the moment depends on cost; the major componant of which is labour. Japan remains competitive because it has has the most sophisticated production processes, quality and cost controls (wages, obviously, are another matter), none of which it exports entirely: China is still reliant on low wages. That said, the artisanal skills available are nothing short of amazing and are not yet fully developed. Something to look forward to.

 

[7_V]

China has an incredible history of industrial innovation stretching back to at least the Shang Dynasty (some of the most beautiful and powerful bronze artifacts ever produced) and the intellectual effort and vision required to develop Chinese writing, also dating to approximately the same period, is nothing short of astonishing.
Gunpowder, moveable type, porcelain and much, much more were invented in China. We've been copying these guys' ideas for the best part of a millenium.

It's certainly true that many inventions have come from China in the past.

Another aspect that interests me is the economic and poverty issue. Westerners generally think of China as a country with a low standard of living but throughout most of human history it has had a higher standard than Western Europe. It's only since the industrial revolution that the situation has been reversed (perhaps temporarily).

 

[7_V]

As Sideshow says, there's really very little that's new in audio. Take the example of electrostatic speakers, which were invented in the 1880s, I believe. Admittedly not quite to QUAD standards, but the idea was not new.

A true story...

Peter Walker had been working on getting the electrostatic principle to work in a practical speaker design for about two years and Ted Jordan, then chief designer at Goodmans, got wind of this.

Hearing that Peter was planning to exhibit his speaker at a forthcoming show, Ted decided to have a go at building one himself and, with two months to go before the exhibition, got started. Goodmans actually managed to get a working speaker built and exhibited. Peter Walker heard Ted's electrostatic and asked how long he'd spent on development. When Ted told him it was two months, Peter Walker was absolutely crestfallen.

What Ted didn't say was that his speaker couldn't run for longer than 45 minutes before blowing up. They had set their demo up using 40 minute master tapes and had a long break between each session. Goodmans never did get an electrostatic speaker onto the market - the devil really was in the detail.

Oh, the fun they had, these gurus of ours.