do you get any front to back soundstage?

Zanash you'll have to help me out, why is there a problem with my HIFI?

 

And you can hear that when listening to Motorhead?

 

What 'stereo equations'?

Toe in should be adjusted by ear in room.

A 'normal' is a line perpendicular to a plane.

And you're back to incoherence.

Paul

 

What is your problem Paul? You still haven't looked up the stereo definitions, I'm not doing it for you I'm afraid. Your pointlessly arguing and now questioning if the stereo equations actually exist?! You can find them yourself, plenty of AES papers, probably have them on an ambisonics site somewhere.
The normal is perpedicular to the imaginary line across the front of the listeners nose, where the line extends from. If you engaged your brain before posting it wouldn't be hard to figure that out.
I'm back to incoherence because you don't understand what I'm talking about, sorry.

 

So you don't know what 'stereo equations' apply? Ambisonics is irrelevant. We're talking stereo. Google isn't helpful here, I've looked. So dig it out and provide a link. I want to see the equations that relate toe to image.

My problem is that you're spouting bollocks. It's obvious to anybody who has played with stereo systems that equilateral triangles and total toe in are very low on the list of 'what's necessary for good imaging' let alone 'good hifi'.

I gave you the definition of 'normal'. If I tip my head back what happens to your normal? Does the image vanish?

On a practical point I cannot recall encountering a real system set up as you suggest is mandated by 'the equations'. Can you show us some photos at least?

Paul

 

Thanks for the alert. (The last choir I was in before I emigrated was the Brighton Festival Chorus and the choral tradition is the thing I miss most, by a long way.) I'll see if I can catch it on the net.

 

Oh your getting personal now. THE stereo equations apply, not what, THE. If you'd care to read what I posted you'd see it says ambisonics websites probably define the stereo equations as a basis for ambisonics. I didn't tell you to read the ambisonics part. There is one set of blumlein stereo equations which take about 2 A4 sides to derive, I know because I learnt them. I don't have a link on the internet, I have the AES journals on CD and about 10 hard copies from my revision from the notes given by my uni professor. If you tip you head back the image changes because you move your ears so the pinna reflections change, again, if you engaged your brain you could figure that out for yourself. On a practical point read ChrisPA's post about dispertion patterns, the end result for true defintion stereo means the angle to normal must be 30 degrees. Whether or not the speakers in question offer the correct pattern to meet that is another point. The only point I was making was that pointing the speakers firing at the back wall does not constitute definition stereo.

I awate your next post of nit picking

 

So do I.

It should be a simple matter for you to provide the Author/Title and/or pre-print number.

 

The easiest way surely would be to get hold of the Alan Blumlein patent from 1931. The full text is no longer available on the internet to my knowledge but someone must have it?

You will often see references to it in passing, Michael Gerzon mentions it in his article on Stereo Imaging, but Blumlein did calculate that for phantom imaging to work (and this is what a true soundstage is), the 60 degree angle (30 degree to the normal) was optimium.

He also accepted the failings of the system, particularly with regards to low frequency sound localisation, so it would be interesting to see someone post the original patent document.

As for toe in, my understanding was that the speakers should be toed in facing the listener for optimum stereo. The reason we seen to have deviated from that, is that the off axis behavior of many cone drive units can be kinder on the ears than the on axis (or so a manufacturer tell me!). There is no excuse for Naim loudspeaker designs other than domestic acceptance and bass reinforcement/impulse response;-)

 

I just don't get whats being argued here? I have always had various speakers against a wall and firing out. I always get a good stereo image.

 

That might be true for individual frequencies, but I don't think it's very likely that entire instruments could be "swallowed up", as it were, in an anti-nodule.

 

In an ideal world but not in reality.

 

Damn, does that mean my dick ain't 10 inches as well?

 

The discussion is front to back stereo image and also up and down. Garyi ..you said you didn't get it [thank God]. You now seem to be contradicting earlier statments, though I may have mis read by saying you get good stereo images. But do you get front to back as well as side to side. Then do you get up and down imaging?

To add a third question what imaging do people get beyond there speakers. As an example if I sit on axis [perpendicular to the speakers {4m appart} in a central position about 3m back] I have a maximum sound window that is about 160 degrees wide, 80 degree each side of the central axis. The speakers are at about 45 degrees each side of the central axis. Most of the sound is within 50 degrees, but exceptionally on a few cds and lps I have extreme left and right info. an example is to be found on the intro to track 13 of Nirvana lounge by Claude Challe & Ravin 3 596971 647124. wag/ 250 3064712.

 

http://www.doramusic.com/patentdetails.htm is a start.

 

bub Complete cancelation is a distinct possibility with antinodes. I have only hear this in a physics lab, rather than hifi but I have no reason to think this is not happening, and may be open of the tricks engineers use to create the stereo illusion.

 

I don't think so. You're making an argument from authority yet seem unable to substantiate that authority other than with bluster and more calls on authority. Well I like to understand things. So I want to see how the claim you made about toe in is substantiated.

Paul

 

Cancelling out an entire instrument? They do play at more than one frequency, by and large....

 

ESL63s can produce counter-intuitive effects due both to being a dipole and to the delay line. It's quite common to walk up next to one and hear the sound apparently come from inside the rear wall, for instance.

Paul

 

Of course according to Anex you shouldn't have a stereo image at all...

Paul