do you get any front to back soundstage?

[garyi]

Zanash you'll have to help me out, why is there a problem with my HIFI?

 

[Saab]

As to the pathetic thread .....I did it, I was not the only listener in the room to do it.

What you say about sound is correct to a point ...do you understand nodes and anti nodes ? Thes are fixed points in space where sound can be cancelled or amplified by phase differences. So these produce the effect is of sound stopping and starting at various points.

And you can hear that when listening to Motorhead?

 

[Paul Ranson]

Toe in IS mandated by the stereo equations.

What 'stereo equations'?

Not absolutely but firing your tweeters parallel at the back wall is not stereo unless you have some very odd dispertion speakers.

Toe in should be adjusted by ear in room.

To anyone who knows what stereo is it is not incoherent because the normal is the imaginary line extending out from the listener's nose when seated equidistant between the speakers facing towards them.

A 'normal' is a line perpendicular to a plane.

Its not wrong because stereo doesn't work properly outside 30 degrees which isn't at all hard to hear as the image shifts when you move about.

And you're back to incoherence.

Paul

 

[Anex]

What is your problem Paul? You still haven't looked up the stereo definitions, I'm not doing it for you I'm afraid. Your pointlessly arguing and now questioning if the stereo equations actually exist?! You can find them yourself, plenty of AES papers, probably have them on an ambisonics site somewhere.
The normal is perpedicular to the imaginary line across the front of the listeners nose, where the line extends from. If you engaged your brain before posting it wouldn't be hard to figure that out.
I'm back to incoherence because you don't understand what I'm talking about, sorry.

 

[Paul Ranson]

So you don't know what 'stereo equations' apply? Ambisonics is irrelevant. We're talking stereo. Google isn't helpful here, I've looked. So dig it out and provide a link. I want to see the equations that relate toe to image.

My problem is that you're spouting bollocks. It's obvious to anybody who has played with stereo systems that equilateral triangles and total toe in are very low on the list of 'what's necessary for good imaging' let alone 'good hifi'.

The normal is perpedicular to the imaginary line across the front of the listeners nose

I gave you the definition of 'normal'. If I tip my head back what happens to your normal? Does the image vanish?

On a practical point I cannot recall encountering a real system set up as you suggest is mandated by 'the equations'. Can you show us some photos at least?

Paul

 

[SteveC]

PPPS. and completely OT, I'll be singing in one of the choirs I sing with, live tomorrow morning on the Radio 4 Sunday Worship (this one's supposed to be with Ken Dodd, who, in this instance, isn't live, but the rest of the broadcast is live)

Thanks for the alert. (The last choir I was in before I emigrated was the Brighton Festival Chorus and the choral tradition is the thing I miss most, by a long way.) I'll see if I can catch it on the net.

 

[Anex]

So you don't know what 'stereo equations' apply? Ambisonics is irrelevant. We're talking stereo. Google isn't helpful here, I've looked. So dig it out and provide a link. I want to see the equations that relate toe to image.
My problem is that you're spouting bollocks. It's obvious to anybody who has played with stereo systems that equilateral triangles and total toe in are very low on the list of 'what's necessary for good imaging' let alone 'good hifi'.
I gave you the definition of 'normal'. If I tip my head back what happens to your normal? Does the image vanish?
On a practical point I cannot recall encountering a real system set up as you suggest is mandated by 'the equations'. Can you show us some photos at least?
Paul

Oh your getting personal now. THE stereo equations apply, not what, THE. If you'd care to read what I posted you'd see it says ambisonics websites probably define the stereo equations as a basis for ambisonics. I didn't tell you to read the ambisonics part. There is one set of blumlein stereo equations which take about 2 A4 sides to derive, I know because I learnt them. I don't have a link on the internet, I have the AES journals on CD and about 10 hard copies from my revision from the notes given by my uni professor. If you tip you head back the image changes because you move your ears so the pinna reflections change, again, if you engaged your brain you could figure that out for yourself. On a practical point read ChrisPA's post about dispertion patterns, the end result for true defintion stereo means the angle to normal must be 30 degrees. Whether or not the speakers in question offer the correct pattern to meet that is another point. The only point I was making was that pointing the speakers firing at the back wall does not constitute definition stereo.

I awate your next post of nit picking

 

[oedipus]

I have the AES journals on CD

So do I.

It should be a simple matter for you to provide the Author/Title and/or pre-print number.

 

[Stereo Mic]

The easiest way surely would be to get hold of the Alan Blumlein patent from 1931. The full text is no longer available on the internet to my knowledge but someone must have it?

You will often see references to it in passing, Michael Gerzon mentions it in his article on Stereo Imaging, but Blumlein did calculate that for phantom imaging to work (and this is what a true soundstage is), the 60 degree angle (30 degree to the normal) was optimium.

He also accepted the failings of the system, particularly with regards to low frequency sound localisation, so it would be interesting to see someone post the original patent document.

As for toe in, my understanding was that the speakers should be toed in facing the listener for optimum stereo. The reason we seen to have deviated from that, is that the off axis behavior of many cone drive units can be kinder on the ears than the on axis (or so a manufacturer tell me!). There is no excuse for Naim loudspeaker designs other than domestic acceptance and bass reinforcement/impulse response;-)

 

[garyi]

I just don't get whats being argued here? I have always had various speakers against a wall and firing out. I always get a good stereo image.

 

[The Devil]

...do you understand nodes and anti nodes ? Thes are fixed points in space where sound can be cancelled or amplified by phase differences. So these produce the effect is of sound stopping and starting at various points.

That might be true for individual frequencies, but I don't think it's very likely that entire instruments could be "swallowed up", as it were, in an anti-nodule.

 

[greg]

after all, hi-fi is high fidelity to the original performance

In an ideal world but not in reality.

 

[garyi]

It seems that you've been deluding yourself.

Damn, does that mean my dick ain't 10 inches as well?

 

[zanash]

The discussion is front to back stereo image and also up and down. Garyi ..you said you didn't get it [thank God]. You now seem to be contradicting earlier statments, though I may have mis read by saying you get good stereo images. But do you get front to back as well as side to side. Then do you get up and down imaging?

To add a third question what imaging do people get beyond there speakers. As an example if I sit on axis [perpendicular to the speakers {4m appart} in a central position about 3m back] I have a maximum sound window that is about 160 degrees wide, 80 degree each side of the central axis. The speakers are at about 45 degrees each side of the central axis. Most of the sound is within 50 degrees, but exceptionally on a few cds and lps I have extreme left and right info. an example is to be found on the intro to track 13 of Nirvana lounge by Claude Challe & Ravin 3 596971 647124. wag/ 250 3064712.

 

[joel]

The easiest way surely would be to get hold of the Alan Blumlein patent from 1931. The full text is no longer available on the internet to my knowledge but someone must have it?

http://www.doramusic.com/patentdetails.htm is a start.

 

[zanash]

bub Complete cancelation is a distinct possibility with antinodes. I have only hear this in a physics lab, rather than hifi but I have no reason to think this is not happening, and may be open of the tricks engineers use to create the stereo illusion.

 

[Paul Ranson]

Oh your getting personal now.

I don't think so. You're making an argument from authority yet seem unable to substantiate that authority other than with bluster and more calls on authority. Well I like to understand things. So I want to see how the claim you made about toe in is substantiated.

Paul

 

[The Devil]

bub Complete cancelation is a distinct possibility with antinodes. I have only hear this in a physics lab, rather than hifi but I have no reason to think this is not happening, and may be open of the tricks engineers use to create the stereo illusion.

Cancelling out an entire instrument? They do play at more than one frequency, by and large....

 

[Paul Ranson]

ESL63s can produce counter-intuitive effects due both to being a dipole and to the delay line. It's quite common to walk up next to one and hear the sound apparently come from inside the rear wall, for instance.

Paul

 

[Paul Ranson]

As an example if I sit on axis [perpendicular to the speakers {4m appart} in a central position about 3m back

Of course according to Anex you shouldn't have a stereo image at all...

Paul