F***ing pay as you go road tax!

Isaac Sibson said:
And for getting to and from work... If I was to take the train, I'd have to leave home about 6:30am, get the 6:45am train, get into manchester around 7:20, change trains, get out to oldham station which is still 10 minutes walk from work, so arriving at work around 8am.
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Such luxury, Isaac! Can we swap?

Leave house 6.00, walk down hill
6.13 get Waldenburgerbahn (narrrow gauge railway)
6.25 arrive Liestal
6.31 get Zürich Interregional
7.25 arrive Zürich main station

(a) if lucky, get 7.28 S-Bahn, arrive in office 7.50

(b) if unlucky (normally the case), miss 7.28, get 7.42, arrive in office 8.10.
 
tones said:
Leave house 6.00, walk down hill
6.13 get Waldenburgerbahn (narrrow gauge railway)
6.25 arrive Liestal
6.31 get Zürich Interregional
7.25 arrive Zürich main station

(a) if lucky, get 7.28 S-Bahn, arrive in office 7.50

(b) if unlucky (normally the case), miss 7.28, get 7.42, arrive in office 8.10.
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I used to work ten minutes walk from my flat. I was invariably late!
 
Clearly many people here do not have a viable public transport system and have to use a car to work. But so many people do, where I live most people do have enough common sense to get the bus into the city centre, they are every two minutes and it takes 25 minutes during rush hour, in the car it will take at least as long as you have to find a parking space and then pay £5 a day.

Its quite funny watching all the cars stuck in traffic early in the morning down princess parkway in Manchester where the bus just flys accross the bridge.

It could take me upto an hour to get to Salford which is only 4-5 miles away from where I live as I had to get two buses but I would much rather that than the hassle of driving being stuck in awful traffic.

I also found it much more reliable, I never broke down :)
 
Isaac Sibson said:
Simple solution is to ban buses, and prevent lorries from using urban roads and congested motorways at peak hours. Buses cause far more problems than they solve, especially once councils start putting stupid buslanes and "traffic calming" systems in place.
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...and then what happens when people like me can't and never will be able to drive, and HAVE to use buses (since I don't see towns like Exeter having train networks to every place where a bus goes right now)? This also includes elderly people who are no longer able to drive.

Congestion charging and long distance tolls seem fair to me PROVIDED taxing on petrol is reduced to make the scheme fairer.

I can see no reason why people who ruin the landscape AND pollute in their silly sardine cans can't be forced to pay for the damage they do, to be frank.

I realise that some people NEED cars, but school runs and "popping to the shops"? These are the people who cause a LOT of the snarl ups, and they should be forced to pay for this or get off their asses and walk to the shops or walk their kids to school.

I'd not mind betting half these journeys are less than a mile. Any able-bodied person should be able to walk this in no more than 20 minutes, which by the time you've got in your car, warmed it up, and then been gridlocked and held up to a walking speed anyway, means you'd have saved nothing by getting your lazy arse in that damn tin box in the first place.
 
I would get the bus as I live on an excellent bus route near where I work. I have no problem with this. But I have no choice as my work expects me to use my car... so I am naturally against this.
 
Ok we have had the argument, in the whole we have decided against this proposed system, so what is the solution?

We certainly cannot sit back and do nothing, otherwise there will be 20% more cars on the road by 2015.
 
PBirkett said:
I would get the bus as I live on an excellent bus route near where I work. I have no problem with this. But I have no choice as my work expects me to use my car... so I am naturally against this.
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Yo've just made another point here, why do work expect you to use your car?

Even if you're a field engineer I wonder if there are alternatives, like do you have to actually go to the work building? Maybe you should have an online briefing so you could then drive to the place directly. It probably wouldn't work I don't know.

Maybe companies need to do more to discourage car use, I know my university refused to build another car park even though they had the land and money simply becuase it would not solve the long term problem.

What we need to is to minimise journeys as much as possible.
 
amazingtrade said:
Ok we have had the argument, in the whole we have decided against this proposed system, so what is the solution?
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There is no fair solution, only solutions are ideas like this one, or a limit of one car per household or being vetted to see if you really need a car before your are permitted to own/use one.

Its simply that the uk is running out of space, and fast and none of the ideas to solve this will be effective.

Another thing, they say they would reduce the price of fuel, maybe they would, but I bet it wouldnt stay reduced for long.

I live out in the sticks and have a medical condition that means I cant use public transport so I really need my car, though I struggle to keep up with cost of it now, never mind in the future if schemes like this one come into force.
 
amazingtrade said:
Yo've just made another point here, why do work expect you to use your car?
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Basically, we work in an IT support team at the local council, Newcastle.

There are approximately 50 people who need to drive to different sites around the city. There are 3 vans for people to use. The council provides us with a car pass for a nearby multi storey in the city centre which costs them £1000 a year. So basically, thats why they expect me to use my car :D

But if they want to charge me that much per mile, then they can either pay for the charges, or I stop using my car. Simple as really :MILD:
 
Ed Needham said:
I was under the impression that the huge duties on fuel WERE a 'pay as you drive' tax system!

This nonsense is just sabre rattling - there would be armed insurrection if a government tried to impose this, they can't be serious.

Ed.
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It's a bloody expensive proposition and would take a long time to implement, to the extent any governement trying to achieve it would be voted out before completing the plan.

The inequality of fuel duty is such that those in the countryside who drive longer on average per journey along quiet roads, those who arguably require access to a personal form of transport, are paying far more per journey in tax than those commuting into cities - those who the government would like to drive onto public transport. As such fuel duty is quite a blunt instrument.

The concept of any road toll framework must surely aim to charge higher rates for use of busier routes (conversely - lower rates for quiet routes). Seems obvious in principle, but how roads are rated, at which point a rate increases or decreases along a single road and how the variable rates are communicated to the public seems enormously complex and liable for dispute at every juncture.

If a flat toll rates for all roads was implemented - then fuel duty is clearly as good this already. Perhaps a combination of lower fuel duty coupled with tolls on busy routes would be a reasonable compromise, though I cant imagine the UK Treasury announcing a reduction in fuel duty ever.

With any GPS based system it wont be long before speeding becomes the next target and thus impossible without incurring automatic fines. There seems to be some reluctance to implement SPECS cameras on many motorways - I wonder if this indicates some caution about p*ssing off motorists too much considering the close relationship between people and their cars which is prevalent in this country.
 
tbh, I don't see any hope really, the futility is like I said that they just charge us more even no it bears no relation to cash spent on roads, its just a tax to make money of.

they will keep on putting it up 3 pence a time, then it goes back 2p, before you know you are paying a fortune.

even if it does come in, its not going to change our behaviour one iota, we will pay more and more, for longer and longer journeys. the future looks very bleak.
 
Time travel is what we need.

Seriously, can you see something so radical being implemented? Its just another think-tank that is using all our money so wisely.
 
One other valid point - why wasn't this bright idea mentioned in Labour's recent election manifesto?

To me this idea will cost a fortune to implement and raise loads of money (maybe enough to plug the suggested black hole in the economy?). It won't address the problem as it will treat the effect, not the cause.

They need to work out how much it would cost to substantially reduce the cost of public transport or even make it free - free might sound a bit over the top but just think - no cost or hassle of buying tickets etc - just hop on the train/bus and off you go. Maybe have fixed price tickets just like on the Paris Metro - one ticket gets you one journey, regardless of length.

So then you raise basic rate income tax back up to 25% and the extra 3% subsidises public transport, which would of course have to be renationalised again.

A bit of blue sky thinking is what's needed!

Matt.

p.s. Dom - do they still refer to cars as 'carriages-of-no-horse-drawn' down in Exeter?
 
I think more should be done to discourage individual car ownership in cities - after all, this is where most congestion is (apart from certain sections of the motorways where no-one in there right mind would drive unless it's the middle of the night!).

A m8 of mine who lives in Outer London commutes into town every day (I used to cycle everywhere when I was there), but when he needs a car, for say family visits etc he hires one.. Works out a shedload cheaper than buying, insuring and maintaining one, especially as you have to pay up to £200/yr just to park outside your own house in parts of London!

In rural areas, though a car is essential... Where I live there's a bus once a week (Tuesday) to Craven Arms... Or there's a twice daily train service to Swansea (3 hours, takes me 2 to drive it) or 1.5 hours to Shrewsbury (40 min drive..), plus a 4 mile walk to the train station..
And of course our cars have to be 4wd, otherwise I'd never be able to go anywhere in winter!

So rather than riding roughshod over our civil liberties again (Governments love to nanny!), as well as not really addressing problems of innefficient vehicles they should give, say free road tax to pool cars, or hybrids, or even better sink more money into fuel cell research... The manufacturers will only sink so much money into research that may ultimately save the planet because their job is to make profits!
 
Matt F said:
One other valid point - why wasn't this bright idea mentioned in Labour's recent election manifesto?
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The same reason Labour only made a fuss about antisocial behaviour after the election. I see from the local free rag that Labout might introduce a 50p in the £ tax rate for those earning over £100k a year; ISTR the Lib Dems proposing exactly the same policy during the election campaign and being slagged off by Labour for doing so.
 
It's a bit difficult when most people couldn't be arsed to vote...

For the record, I never have, nor ever will vote for Labour. And no, I didn't vote conservative either.
 
i don't think we can blame the government for this one. simple fact - not enough space too many cars. then there's the enviroment, oil being a finite rescource and all. taxing the drivers that use the roads most seems sensible to me.

to assuage those that want get all party political about this it seems that there is in principle cross party support for this. also who know's what government willl be here when they come to implement it.
 
hi John, that's errant thinking, I will explain why.Whilst something is needed to be done, the manner in which its been done is directly attributable to this govt. and once again they have mislead the public, whilst a portion of them has been hoodwinked into voting them back in.

Why wasn't this highlited during the election campaign is a valid question, this is a revolutionary proposay in the ways we conduct our lives, and we should have been told of this yet it was only a sub clause I am told in the election manifesto and passed totally unnoticed.
There was no mention within 1 month that a pilot scheme in manchester or the w midlands.
Once again this dirty govt has used vague words and lack of them to hoodwink the public, and guess what, its their own fault.
It also has civil liberties implications.
 

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