Fully ballanced valve preamps

Hi,

anubisgrau said:
btw what did you mean when you were at some other place asked about several preamps and the only thing you said about EAR 864 was - "british".
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A little boring, a little flat, a little lacking in dynamics and contrast, a little off in terms of conveying emotion compared to what I like. To my ears most EAR Gear has this charateristic sound, some might call it "understated". To me it does nothing obviously wrong, but others do more things more obviously right.

Ciao T
 
3DSonics said:
Hi,



A little boring, a little flat, a little lacking in dynamics and contrast, a little off in terms of conveying emotion compared to what I like. To my ears most EAR Gear has this charateristic sound, some might call it "understated". To me it does nothing obviously wrong, but others do more things more obviously right.

Ciao T
Click to expand...


hmmm, this sounds very much like what i heard from small 834L. thanks anyway. i am somehow desperately trying not to exclude 864 from the selection - i like the looks and it has a very good reputation therefore a good after-sale value. if i buy it s/h, i won't lose money.

strangely mr. t, apart from recommending transformer based passive preamps, i can't remember if you have had a nice word on an active pre. are they ALL that bad to you? can't be that there is no some small, hidden gem.
 
Hi,

anubisgrau said:
strangely mr. t, apart from recommending transformer based passive preamps, i can't remember if you have had a nice word on an active pre. are they ALL that bad to you? can't be that there is no some small, hidden gem.
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My experience is that most active preamplifiers significantly deviate from neutrality. This can be "a good thing" in the same way winnie the pooh says "hunny is good". I just have found overall that I have no use for this.

I equally find that ANY of the active preamplifiers I have encountered significantly subtracts from what goes in. I have been mostly on passive line stages for a decade and halve, prefering to accept some of their limitations over the problems added by conventional line stages.

Among the best active ones I know are the various Conrad Johnson ART (and related versions, but not the lower grade ones like the PV-10) and BAT stuff among commercial gear and the Arthur Loesch Linestage as well as the Kondo M7 Line (unsurprisingly ALL of these share a lot of the principle design and circuit structure, though implementations vary) among what one may call "low volume custom" gear.

In DIY I find best the various "Euridice" variations, these are basically transformer coupled designs, the best "Euridice" we have come up with uses a S&B TVC as volume control and a S&B Line Transformer (TX-102 Silver & TX-101 MKII Silver) with a custom S&B Anode Load choke, silver foil coupling capacitors, battery based biasing and a super-massive power supply with all film capacitors and several custom made "wideband" chokes.

In my OWN system at home this comes in a close second against my Music First Audio passive Pre. In the system of the friend for whom this was developed having the extra gain and drive is essential (due to the use of low gain amplfiiers and passive line level LC Crossovers ahead of the Amplifiers), so in his case there is no "passive option".

As I build most of my stuff myself and happen to have the circuits for most commercial gear on my HDD (plus usually plenty of inside shots) and have designed plenty that match or exceed many a commercial design. If there was a active line stage that was in my system and for my purposes better than what I have I would use it.

The TVC principle is the result of seeking the best way to generate a "wire with adjustable attenuation" or closest equivalent. The various S & B (and copycats - though I must note that Sowter is not as such a copycat, but rather someone who first refused to make a TVC to my specs and then, when noticing demand, dug out my specifications and started making them) TVC based linestages are merely commercial implementations of this principle.

In my view a well matched modern HiFi system needs an active linestage about as much as a Fish needs a Bicycle only a lot less so. I am equally hardly alone with this view, one of the great contrarian minds and writers on audio (contrarian to the common high end BS) Arthur Salvatore wrote:

'Any system that sounds better with the addition of an "Active" Linestage is an unequivocal indication that a mistake has been made in the choice and "the matching" of the components.'

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html

Ciao T
 
You can hardly call TVC's high cost considering the performance they give. Just over £1k for a Music first is a bloody bargain!
 
Hi,

anubisgrau said:
obviously this is becoming quite a popular standpoint, despite very high costs for proper TVC devices.
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Well, I don't know about "high cost".

An active preamplifier of a quality level that bears consideration will easily run above £ 2...3K. Next to that £ 1,500 for a copper Music First Audio PMP is QUITE REASONABLE.

The list preamp's it has "vanquished" according to customers, reviewers etc. include the best CJ, ARC Reference, BAT and so on.

anubisgrau said:
look at this one for $320 inc. delivery:
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Remember, you get what you pay for. Note that this unit is steel cored. Very much not advised.

Ciao T
 
Hi,

anubisgrau said:
A stock Music First or something different?
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Stock MFA Copper PMP.

The very first MK III TX-102 equipped unit....

I simply use this as it is smaller physically.

Before i used a DIY Unit using the S&B TX-102 MKI in the chassis of a Opera Reference Preamp. BTW, I also have an Opera Reference 1.3 at home (same Amorphous Transformers as Django AM) and it gathers dust.

One day I might just put a pair of "gainclone" amplifiers in there too (mostly empty air) and put it into the bedroom system.

Ciao T
 
I thought the title of this thread was ''fully balanced valve pre-amps'' ? I guess I must have missed something...
 
3DSonics said:
In my view a well matched modern HiFi system needs an active linestage about as much as a Fish needs a Bicycle only a lot less so. I am equally hardly alone with this view, one of the great contrarian minds and writers on audio (contrarian to the common high end BS) Arthur Salvatore wrote:

'Any system that sounds better with the addition of an "Active" Linestage is an unequivocal indication that a mistake has been made in the choice and "the matching" of the components.'

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html

Ciao T
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Sorry for talking about myself for a minute here, but I think my experience is probably shared with quite a few other audiophiles and is relevent to the pre-amp debate.

In my case, I need and WANT artifice. I'm not particularly after a "hi-fi" presentation with my music (which I will attempt to define as "the closest possible sound to the original performance" and either "you are there" or "they are here"!) as IME, the neutrality & resolution of equipment capable of delivering such a presentation will render anything other than the highest quality recordings unpleasurable to listen to.

Given the great many "inferior" recordings I own, and the continuing reduction in the recording & mastering quality of modern pop & rock music, this is a real and increasing problem. As much as I'd love a high-resolution hi-fi, I have to remember that 50% of my music collection is optimised for radio & MP3 playback.

In light of this, the "artifice" that a tube pre-amp can deliver (colouration, warmth, euphony - whatever you want to call it) is sometimes a welcome and/or necessary addition to a hi-fi system. Its also a tragedy that people like Thorsten, who's goal in life is to bring us closer to the music (and much poorer in the process :D !), have to battle against the rising tide of crap recordings that totally undermine the advances they're making on the playback side of the equation.

Apologies if all this is peripheral to the central argument for you're tring to make (which I think is the theoretical & audible superiority of passive over active pre's), but I think its a very important to remember what your overall goals are in terms of sonic presentation, and the scarifices you're willing to make to the "listenability" of potentially a large chunk of your music collection, in pursuit of the "most accurate reproduction".

Its a practical consideration that is sometimes ignored at the expense of musicality and listening pleasure that needs to be highlighted more often when discussing the issue of neutrality & accuracy of audio components.

Rgds,
DT
 
I didn't want or especially need artifice, I just didn't think the music first passive preamp sounded very good.
 
Hi,

Dynamic Turtle said:
In my case, I need and WANT artifice.
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Sorry to be such a pain, but in such case, whould it not be a good idea to have a deliberate "effect unit" which is adjustable and which has a bypass switch?

I am ALL IN FAVOUR of basically doing with the recording whatever you like to make it sound good. HOWEVER this automatically means to me that you require both adjustability and the ability to bypass said device.

My personal list of desirable "controls" on such a "remasering effect processor":

1) Warmth - that is traditional "ToobZound", a good dash of low order harmonics, adjustable
2) Tonal Balance Tilt (eg, like the old quad tilt control)
3) Frequency dependent stereo basis adjustment (typhically widening below 500Hz, narrowing above)
4) Dynamic Range Expander

Now using the more arcane features of the Behringer DEQ2496 give me all but "warmth".... :D

Ciao T
 
3DSonics said:
Hi,
one of the great contrarian minds and writers on audio (contrarian to the common high end BS) Arthur Salvatore wrote:

'Any system that sounds better with the addition of an "Active" Linestage is an unequivocal indication that a mistake has been made elsewhere.

Ciao T
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Sorry Thorsten but that is one person's rather academic viewpoint, and would be ridiculed by owners of Connoisseur 4.0L, Kondo M77's and TEAD Vibe Pulse's.

The day that a passive preamp can get anywhere near the "live event" capability of these components and others still seems an eternity away.

Transformer based passives are good value for money, but do not IMO represent anything like the state of the art if realism is your goal.
 
Hi,

bottleneck said:
I didn't want or especially need artifice, I just didn't think the music first passive preamp sounded very good.
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It probably "did not sound very good" because it "simply does not sound". It's not meant to "sound". It is meant to pass on what is input with as few losses in any domain as possible.

It does that quite well (not just on my own view, but also according to Sam Tellig, Sarjan Eaben, Martin Colloms, Steve Harris, David Price, David Vivian, most of which bought [and paid for] their review samples [except DV where it was part of a system]) but it does not do anything else, nor is it supposed to.

Ciao T
 
Hi,

Stereo Mic said:
Sorry Thorsten but that is one person's rather academic viewpoint, and would be ridiculed by owners of Connoisseur 4.0L, Kondo M77's and TEAD Vibe Pulse's.
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Of these I only know two of these items firsthand and in MY OWN SYSTEM and to the requirement of what makes music "lifelike" to me personally the two I know are not preferable at all.

But such choices are system dependent and a matter of personal choice.

Ciao T
 
Hi,

I think that is the point. In particular, the TVC's seem to be highly system dependent, as evidenced by it's chameleon like performance with different power amps at Dev's and Bottleneck's disappointing experience.

So if the TVC sounds poor, it is likely a system mismatch rather than the TVC exposing some weakness. In which case, buy the preamp that sounds better, of which in my experience, and in my system, there are many.
 
Hi,

Stereo Mic said:
So if the TVC sounds poor, it is likely a system mismatch rather than the TVC exposing some weakness. In which case, buy the preamp that sounds better, of which in my experience, and in my system, there are many.
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There are only two possible mismatches with the S&B TX-102....

1) Electrical, this applies only to sources with unusually high output impedance, generally anything below 1KOhm is fine and equally it may apply to amplifiers with unusually low input impedances which the source itself cannot drive.

2) Sonical - the system is lacking in performance in one area or another where an active preamplifier corrects the deficiency.

Given that many people deliberatly misuse preamplifiers as effect units to shape the sound of the system introducing a truely neutral preamplifier into a system balanced around a strongly "sounding" preamplifier will throw things out of balance.

I have always considered that fixing one problem by adding a different one a poor way to get a balanced performance. But as I build most of my stuff myself or at least heavily mod all my commercial gear I can afford such purism (again, as can Arthur Salvatore BTW). Anyone left to buying consumer gear, espeically if on a budget may find themselves in the unenviable position of having to find a balance any which way they can.

In the end, allowed is what people actually LIKE.

If I where asked to recomend an outstanding around £ 10K system right now I'd probably say:

MEG RL-901K Speakers
Music First PMP
Shanling CD-T100 Player (or my moded one)

The result would surprise you, I myself would certainly like it.

In halve a year it may very well be the AMR CD-Player, Integrated Amplifier and Speaker, I hope our stuff will be as good and/or better than what I mention above, it will have to be to earn the right to be in the market, actually.

Ciao T
 
must say i've heard a few tvc's in systems i've known quite well and they've always been underwhelming. i'm dubious about most passive preamps as they smack of getting a free lunch.
cheers


julian.
 
Did Dev have a disappointing experience of a TVC? Funny that he is building one!

I think it is very important to let these warm up fully. If they were delivered in the post, they NEED a day indoors before working correctly. This is clearly measurable as well. They then need about 30min of music to come on tune. Could this explain some of the disappointing auditions?

They can certainly play with the big boys, just look at the Ypsilon pre-amp.
 
Tenson said:
Did Dev have a disappointing experience of a
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He'd already ordered it Tenson. It worked well with one power amp. It didn't with another. So much for input impedences;)

In two systems, traditional passive pre's have been preferred by the assembled hordes. Hardly conclusive is it?

If I where asked to recomend an outstanding around £ 10K system right now I'd probably say:

MEG RL-901K Speakers
Music First PMP
Shanling CD-T100 Player (or my moded one)

The result would surprise you, I myself would certainly like it.
Click to expand...

If I were to recommend an alternative that did not have products you represent, I'd probably say

JBL 4338
Berning ZH270
Marantz SA 11

I think the results would really surprise you Thorsten.

Ciao

M
 

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