HIFI+ slates web forums

[amazingtrade]

I've not read all of this post as I'm too busy however I will say that sinc eusing HIFI forums I have stopped buying the magazines.

They are quite simply the most biased things you can read. A certain HIFI magazine seems ot award stars on the following basis:

***** - They advertise a lot with us so we better keep them sweet, nice product though.

**** - Not bad, does the job but we cannot say it has awful build quality as they advertise with us.

*** - Great product but they don't advertise with us

** - Wofeful.

* - They are never going to advertise with us.

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

I can't really add anything to this, having read it, all the relevant views are there.

I will say that I have my own VERY strong views about snake oil type things, sometimes strongly slating the peddlers for there factually inaccurate claims and gross obscene pricing. And I think they need exposing and the claims rubbishing. Indeed, it is practically a kind of libel to say untruths, so hyping and then getting disappointed is in a round a bout way talking mistruths and misleading. To add insult, these cost a bomb relatively.

WRT libel it HAS to be untrue. if you say something that is personal opinion, that is ok, provided it doesn't damage someones reputation. To say Naim are grossly expensive means I have seen them inside, and there is not much and no magic, and the pricing is obscene for what you get. My opinion. Factual. The fact it delivers is some consolation, but materially, its way overpriced.

Its a fine line, also it depends on what you say, this forum is great, full of individual opinions, and hifi is ALL opinion I would say ( an opinion!!) its all personal, you can get such great info on this forum, and its really helpful for sifting thro all the crap.

Indeed, to say forums are full of that is libellous in itself, as it damages them and is untrue. So RG watch what you write.

HIFI marketting is really quite dirty, as does all the politics of the companies involved, and this is what I really object to. Unsubstantiated gross marketting hypebole, hyped up fantastic, best yet, best ever, better than last month. you see it everywhere and if you believed it, a few yrs old products would be unlistenable. why can't we sue the mags for this? It wrong, its a kind of hidden slandering of the older stuff that is totally unfounded.

I think RG has a point in general, as with all things, there is some truth, there probably are forums like that, however, again it can be construed as an attack on free opinion and censorship by the industry that wants to gag opinions

bit of a cheek if you ask me. Select your mag carefully, bribe the reviewer, pay adverts, get a fab review, then try to stop any honest people on forums trying to say, no this kit was kak, load of rubbish, don't buy it, the mag was wrong, very morally and ethically dubious.

Its almost as tho they have a superiority complex like our mags have the monopoly on truth, and can write whearas forums can't.

Some of these companies have got arrogant and too big for their own boots.

WRT messenger, very interesting. I like his reviews, sure what suprises me is he has this huge system, likes huge speakers, yet I have some old hifi choice and they have a kind of rating system....excell, VG+, VG, G, G-, etc., and PM's has the least in favour of the Es and VG+, he doesn't exaggerate, he tells the truth by and large, and I have bought speakers recommended elsewhere listened and found that something I don't like PM has also said. SO I find him very accurate with his ears. He also for his sins with big speakers, gives incredibly balanced reviews of smaller and cheap ones.

When you see a mag every month pushing hard a product and having the latest one of the same make in next months mag, you get very cynical. HFW with origin live, though I do accept OL are decent enough.

To sum up, for a maker to say, the best you have every heard, you pay 1000s, get it back and its not, and then post on a forum saying as much, what is wrong with that? It applies to cables as much as cds.

 

[wadia-miester]

I've been giving a bit of thought to this responce, being on the 'other side of the fence' so to speak and right in Data's 'Strong Views section too'
Free speech/freedom on any subject is what WWII and such conflicts were about, so in essence Hifi is very small drop in the ocean of the grand scheme of things I feel.
Hifi in general is marketing spin & clever politics, there are exceptions to rules, those that play the rules of engagement tend to be the steady eddies, good honest products, fair prices.
There are those, which do charge 'un realistic' sums due to having a 'Household name', and people pay it, and if they pay it, company 'x' will charge it what ever the product.
As Steve has put rather well, you really have to believe in your Product/s to put all the eggs in one basket and be confident (without arragance) that your goods can cut the mustard in the any market place let alone hifi.
Choosing a reviewer that has integrity, and a straight approach to reviewing, is a risky move? how so?, well no matter how good YOU personally feel your Gear is, you are now letting 3rd party (unkown) loose with all your hard graft, he/she may not take it heart, can you handle constructive critisium?, as well as a good review?.
I'm not backing RG or any other Jurno, they get paid for there services, but remember it goes to us the public, they put their name to it, up and open for all to disect.
However RG, should note, that internet forms may at the moment not be the 'pulse' of the hifi buying public, but they have every right to their opinion, thoughts & own minds, as this forum of information is instant and growing. T.

 

[leonard smalls]

Originally posted by Lt Cdr Data
The fact it delivers is some consolation, but materially, its way overpriced.

Same applies to most luxury goods....
Look at the profits in perfume FFS!
It's what the market will bear, whether that's a good or bad thing is a different matter.

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

I don't mean you BTW WM, I mean the REAL purpetrators and peddlers of the bollux, the people who make wild wacky claims and that they have done research without any backup, and they say buy more of ours cos the more you buy the better the sound.
And a certain audiophile candy is also full of superfluous rubbish that I don't believe in. All IMO, as everything is. YMMV, free speech reigns.

Everyone is free to make claims and cables, there is a difference between an honest positive statement about your product that you believe in, and a complete and utter shite misleading marketing tactic, when they start crossing the line and saying complete unfounded nonsense like some do, I get rather turned off, and personally tend to avoid nasty false marketing like the plague.

I am VASTLY sceptical about 10 mana racks..you have to be mad to have that in your room. blantant unabashed profiteering. Totally unnecessary IMO. I think some wives need to allow men to indulge, but sometimes I do feel sorry for them.

Its hard to say what I mean exactly. Maybe I ought to try to phrase things better, or else not say anything at all. I used to be really against cables and stuff, now i accept they do make things different, same with mains. so I could be well wrong about some things.
Its just a disillusion thing I have bought dear, and found some cheap things better. Then you read the hype marketing. You can't help but get suspicious.

Maybe I should buy a load of naim, mana and russ andrews just for the hell of it!! What I do like is the quality of build about these expensive things, at least they are well made. Having made my own stuff I am beginning to appreciate the effort it takes to make and get something off the ground. Its hard work, and sometimes better to pay someone that do it yourself.
However, siltech cables for £30k?? not me.

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Lt Cdr Data
Everyone is free to make claims and cables, there is a difference between an honest positive statement about your product that you believe in, and a complete and utter shite misleading marketing tactic, when they start crossing the line and saying complete unfounded nonsense like some do, I get rather turned off, and personally tend to avoid nasty false marketing like the plague.

Ian, I wasn't being direct at you in the above post, just pointing out that we are in the market sector, and as we've already stated, its free views, but you've hit the nail on the head I think, in the above section, their are a lot of Alistar Cambels in the hifi arena .T.

 

[bottleneck]

A long thread with some interesting points.
I dont want to duplicate, and have only one thing to add.

I have visited the premises of perhaps ten British hifi companies of varying sorts. They are all companies whose names you would recognise.

All of these companies (bar one) would be classified as an SME often working from a garage, a small outbuilding or similar. Most have perhaps 3-4 people working there. These companies are unlikely to be able/willing to pursue high brow law suits.

If this is something RG realistically expects to happen, Id suggest that this is entirely unrealistic.

The exception I noted above is a large multinational with an audio string to its bow. Im sure they have more than sufficient resources to swallow a law suit with ease. I would however suggest that they would find the idea of sueing a poster on an internet forum trivial and faintly ridiculous, and certainly a waste of time.

Finally, in summary, if RG's comments were hot-headed (and again I havent read them) I dont think its entirely unrealistic to think that he is letting his own opinion come into the fray. Perhaps he edits his own work.


PS Paul Messenger for prime minister!!

 

[The Devil]

If Roy Gregory is too lofty to read internet forums, then how does he know what they contain?

Gregoryballs.

 

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Lawrie
The sub pushing issue was just one such corporate agenda.

It wasn't even as lofty as 'corporate'. It was just one man trying to raise his own profile and sales.
I haven't read the HiFi+ article - though from what you guys have quoted and from experience running the AV Forums I have to agree that you have to keep a very close eye on things.
As forums grow, the number of posts eventually becomes unmanagable for the (usually) 1 person who started them to monitor and the help of moderators becomes invaluable. All the same sometimes things do slip through the net.
The problem of anonymity is significant. At one point I considered asking all members to use their real names. The problem here though is that of security. A few internet searches and you soon find lots of addresses of people with expensive kit in their houses.
And added to that we have people who work for some of the big manufacturers who simply wouldn't participate under their real names as doing so it against their employer's policy.
Then you have the problem of cliques of people gathering and being very noisy about their favourite make of kit. Rather like areas of pidgeon poop attract more pidgeons.
But you can't censor them in any way as their opinion is valid. Rival manufacturers to the 'flavour of the month' who look in on your forums may well not like what they see and leave with a lasting bad impression having seen something which may be quite a passing fad.
One thing which I think forums like ours do well, though, is both promote the hobby and give trmendous help to newbies. Provided, of course, that the moderators and regulars don't let the newbies get swamped by the aforementioned cliques of people. Balanced opinions are so important.

Big friendly 'hi' from me to all Zero Gain members. :slayer:

 

[Lawrie]

Originally posted by 7_V

I have also been approached by several web-based publications who would like to review the products. I always ask what sort of equipment they intend to use with the speakers. Some have told me that they believe that it's not important and any equipment priced over a couple of hundred pounds is good enough and it all sounds similar anyway.

Steve,

That was an excellent response sir and as Dev mentioned, your argument for choosing a particular reviewer to review your loudspeakers was very eloquently put. However, I wasn't referring to you directly when I made my comments as I was not aware that you specifically requested that Paul Messenger review your speakers but your points have been taken all the same.

I am not familiar with Paul Messenger's work but I suppose he compares favourably to Michael Fremer of Stereophile fame who's work I am familiar with. Well, his (Michael Fremer) reviews of products that I am familiar with have been spot on so I guess he's alright in my book. However, it must be noted that just as some manufacturers (such as yourself) would choose reviewers of long-standing and experience to give a fair and unbiased review to their products, others would choose certain unscrupulous reviewers who would rate their mediocre products rather highly and hype them to the hills. This sort of stuff goes on. Also, such reviewers are reluctant to criticise or highlight the negative aspects of particular products so as not to upset the manufacturers. No product out there is perfect yet with many of the reviews, one hardly reads about the negative aspects and quality control problems of the said products. An Italian made turntable range is just one such example of products that are being glossed over by many in the audio press despite ââ'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦.. Nuff said!!

Btw, I had to laugh at your comment above as I never thought that reviewers of all people would come out with comments like those. They sound like 'sceptics' to me.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by Lawrie
... However, it must be noted that just as some manufacturers (such as yourself) would choose reviewers of long-standing and experience to give a fair and unbiased review to their products, others would choose certain unscrupulous reviewers who would rate their mediocre products rather highly and hype them to the hills. This sort of stuff goes on. Also, such reviewers are reluctant to criticise or highlight the negative aspects of particular products so as not to upset the manufacturers. No product out there is perfect yet with many of the reviews, one hardly reads about the negative aspects and quality control problems of the said products.

So...

A function of the magazines is to warn people of the pitfalls and dangers of the forums.

A function of the forums is to warn people of the pitfalls and dangers of the magazines.

 

[Saab]

So...

A function of the magazines is to warn people of the pitfalls and dangers of the forums.

A function of the forums is to warn people of the pitfalls and dangers of the magazines.

an thus endeth this thread,appropiatley enough

 

[Lawrie]

Originally posted by 7_V
So...

A function of the magazines is to warn people of the pitfalls and dangers of the forums.

A function of the forums is to warn people of the pitfalls and dangers of the magazines.

I guess it's a case of who is reviewing the reviewers and it seems that forums, rightly or wrongly, have taken-up that mantle.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by 7_V
So...

A function of the magazines is to warn people of the pitfalls and dangers of the forums.

A function of the forums is to warn people of the pitfalls and dangers of the magazines.

I would certainly agree with this, but still don't understand why Mr Gregory should have such a bee in his bonnet about it.

Yes its true that magazine reviews are not anonymous and in that respect the views expressed are accountable and that this is not so of forums - however it should be pretty obvious to even the most naive newbie that because forums are anonymous, you need to take what is written with a pinch of salt (just as the wise person would regarding magazine articles ).

It should also be pointed out (perhaps to Mr G himself) that unlike a review or article in a magazine which is published and that's it, posts to forums are subject to the scrutiny and comment of the other forum members, which is usually quite effective in terms of self regulation.

For the record I don't believe manufacturers actually bribe either editors or reviewers to give good reviews. I do believe however that there is room for a little more honesty from magazines regarding the value of some of some the products reviewed both in terms of their audible effect and their intrinsic value.

They are happy to tell us their views on whether they are effective in audio terms and in terms of their build quality ... and I'm personally perfectly willing to accept those views, albeit with a certain amount of scepticism regarding some types of product. What they seem incapable of saying is whether a product represents good value for money.

Ie. "product X makes a valuable contribution to the sound of our system BUT the price is pretty outrageous for what it is basically a kettle lead (or some similar snake oilery) - if manufacturer Y brought the price down to a fifth of what it is now we would give it a hearty recommendation" and incidentally manufacturer Y would most likely still cover their costs by a wide margin and might conceivably sell them by the bucketload.

Magazines and manufacturers have a complex relationship - on the one hand magazines are in a position to really help or hinder the success of a product through a review - particularly in the enthusiasts end of the market (and remember it isn't just punters who read mags, its dealers too and a good review can make for a good sales pitch). On the other hand all manufacturers are existing or possible future revenue streams for the magazines (via existing or future advertising). I would imagine the smaller the magazine, the more of a problem this potentially problematic relationship could become.

PS. Steve, took a look at your speakers on yor web site - Nice I could see my other half going for a pair of those.

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by Uncle Ants
PS. Steve, took a look at your speakers on yor web site - Nice I could see my other half going for a pair of those.

Thanks Uncle Ants. You'd be welcome to arrange to listen to them at some time. No purchase necessary.

I've just reduced my prices quite considerably and I'm surprised that no one on ZG has picked up on that yet. I was expecting some flak. :yikes:
Snipers are welcome to pick up the details on the web site. :gatling:

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by 7_V
Thanks Uncle Ants. You'd be welcome to arrange to listen to them at some time. No purchase necessary.

I've just reduced my prices quite considerably and I'm surprised that no one on ZG has picked up on that yet. I was expecting some flak. :yikes:
Snipers are welcome to pick up the details on the web site. :gatling:

I'd love to, But no purchase possible, I'm afraid I've spent all my money on my campervan and suspect my bank balance is unlikely to recover for quite some time

 

[rewster]

Just read the article that started all this off, and now I'm not so sure Mr Gregory was altogether wrong. As far as bias is concerned, he like all of us, has one. His is traceable and fairly evident, he puts his name to it and as mentioned in the article, if he wants gear he can get it, but that doesn't mean he listens to it. Like all of us in the same situation I expect you end up being transparent and straightforward 'cos it's the best way to be.