HIFI+ slates web forums
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Try looking for Kal Rubinson's posts. or Chip Stern, hell even the editor contributes regularly.
Let's face it. Roy Gregory probably supplements his income by buying and selling the goods he reviews. If that is the case, how on earth can his opinions be anything other than harmful to the enthusiast.
I should point out that I cannot of course prove this, so it is merely supposition. I have however been advised by many of the inner circle that this might just be the case
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Originally posted by merlin
Let's face it. Roy Gregory probably supplements his income by buying and selling the goods he reviews. If that is the case, how on earth can his opinions be anything other than harmful to the enthusiast.
I should point out that I cannot of course prove this, so it is merely supposition. I have however been advised by many of the inner circle that this might just be the case
Steady on old boy, that is getting a bit personal. You don't want to live up to Mr Gregory's stereotype of forum contributors as rabid, unreasonable and libellous do you?
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"Most"............."vast majority"....."I would guess"...........a hell of a lot of guess work in that statement.
and how the hell does working in a shop help you understand that forum users are not their "real customers"??!! Do forum users have secret handshakes or something? what an utterly ridiculous thing to say,you clearly have the same beef that Mr Gregory has.
I would like to add i buy all the mags and have a lot of respect for journalism as a profession,but statements like the one above do nothing to help your cause,its wild opinion based on your own predujices,just the sort of thing RG seems to despise,pots and kettles spring to mind
apologies if that sounds harsh,its not meant to be,but the sweeping generalistions you make have confused me,in as much as you suggest that forum users are not real customers,which is plainly rubbish,many in these forums will spend thousands in shops,over many years
Is this deteriating relationship between printed journalism and web forums something to do with the increased sense of outrage at the sheer amout of snake oil being thrown at HIFI consumers nowadays? Demagic,cables,vibration etc etc,whatever,there is an ever increasing feeling we are being fleeced,and of course the mags have to review these things with a differfent perspective.
All credit to HIFI+ for printing the slagging off letter they received,accusing the mag of perpetuating the many myths that possiblky exist in this industry (although i think tossers was a bit strong).
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The Devil
IHTFP
Roy Gregory is one of the worst writers I have ever read. Purple prose with some added purple.
Similarly, Nordost produce the worst cables I have ever heard.
Are the above two statements connected? I think we should be told.
Similarly, Nordost produce the worst cables I have ever heard.
Are the above two statements connected? I think we should be told.
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
But I think we are all agreed, his magazine does smell nice.
Markus S
Trade
Merlin, let's look at an entirely hypopthetical situation. Let's assume someone who's very much in to hi-fi and forums wants to change his system. Wouldn't he be tempted to give TACT, or Simaudio, or JBL subs, or whatever else we can think of for this hypothetical situation, a glowing testimony on the forums he frequents, trying to generate a "buzz" so he finds it easier to move the stuff?
Why should we automatically assume our hypothetical forum poster is more reliable in his opinions than a reviewer?
Reviewers normally have a large incentive to get their reviews right: if they get it wrong too often, they will lose their job.
Why should we automatically assume our hypothetical forum poster is more reliable in his opinions than a reviewer?
Reviewers normally have a large incentive to get their reviews right: if they get it wrong too often, they will lose their job.
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yes Markus,and that possibly explains why not one review has ever been printed of an expensive cable whwre the reviewer clearly states they cannot hear any difference at all.They HAVE to hear something,because they wont be asked to review cables again,web users don't have this hanging over their heads though.This seems to urk journalists no end,understandably i suppose.
I would just love to read a cable review that said "its cack,and a huge waste of money".Kessler has come nearest but he smoothed it over by claiming insanity
I would just love to read a cable review that said "its cack,and a huge waste of money".Kessler has come nearest but he smoothed it over by claiming insanity
PeteH
Natural Blue
The way I see it, the big advantage a well-regulated forum with thoughtful, intelligent contributors (such as Zerogain, naturally ) has over a print magazine basically boils down to peer review.
If you make a contentious statement on here then you have to be ready to back it up as someone will pick you up on it quickly; if you say something which is factually incorrect or logically indefensible then you'll soon be corrected, and you'll be jumped on if you're clearly wrong but keep insisting that you're not. OTOH in your average consumer magazine the journalist can, subject to the approval of the editor, pretty much say whatever he likes, and if it's nonsensical then there'll be a few irate letters over the next few weeks but the majority of readers will more than likely just take it as gospel as it's in a magazine and therefore must be true. It's interesting BTW to see some people who have argued against the peer review system in the cable threads coming out in support of this aspect of the forum
Of course, impartiality and the lack of vested interests from advertisers or other interested parties is the other reason why you expect a neutral forum such as this to be a particularly good source of information. Or at least you would, but it turns out michaelab and about half the other usernames are actually NAD's Bjorn Erik Edvardsen under pseudonyms, hence all the S300 recommendations recently :yikes:
) has over a print magazine basically boils down to peer review.If you make a contentious statement on here then you have to be ready to back it up as someone will pick you up on it quickly; if you say something which is factually incorrect or logically indefensible then you'll soon be corrected, and you'll be jumped on if you're clearly wrong but keep insisting that you're not. OTOH in your average consumer magazine the journalist can, subject to the approval of the editor, pretty much say whatever he likes, and if it's nonsensical then there'll be a few irate letters over the next few weeks but the majority of readers will more than likely just take it as gospel as it's in a magazine and therefore must be true. It's interesting BTW to see some people who have argued against the peer review system in the cable threads coming out in support of this aspect of the forum
Of course, impartiality and the lack of vested interests from advertisers or other interested parties is the other reason why you expect a neutral forum such as this to be a particularly good source of information. Or at least you would, but it turns out michaelab and about half the other usernames are actually NAD's Bjorn Erik Edvardsen under pseudonyms, hence all the S300 recommendations recently :yikes:
julian2002
Muper Soderator
<stands up> NO! I'm Bjorn Erik Edvardsen
cheers
Bjorn Erik Edvardsen
cheers
Bjorn Erik Edvardsen
Markus,
We shouldn't. The reality is that the immediacy of the fora
almost asserts itself. If you say something completely mad,
someone will come and contradict it. This will balance the
opinions out. Noone is necessarily right or wrong, but there
is an open exposition of opinions. Everyone is free to make
their own judgements and draw their own conclusions.
Moreover, generally people that write in these fora are not
called experts by themselves, instead sometimes being
recognised as such by others, for their merits. That, to my
mind, is a much fairer way of qualifying opinions and asserting
expertise.
One last remark: i buy mags, and not just because of the
smell of the paper. At best, they tell me what gear is
coming out, what their strengths and weaknesses are,
and how they work with one or two types of equipment.
It is however very difficult to find in a mag all the combinations
of equipment pairing that one might want to find out about.
If I want to know how well (or not) a certain speaker will
work with an amp, or a source, the chances that someone
in a forum has tried that combination and can give me some
guidelines is much higher. It is no conclusion but it can
help a lot. And save people from going blind into bad
combinations.
Each to its own. Mags are useful and i respect a lot of what
is written there. Same goes to the fora. In the end we all
follow our ears, or so we should.
Jack
We shouldn't. The reality is that the immediacy of the fora
almost asserts itself. If you say something completely mad,
someone will come and contradict it. This will balance the
opinions out. Noone is necessarily right or wrong, but there
is an open exposition of opinions. Everyone is free to make
their own judgements and draw their own conclusions.
Moreover, generally people that write in these fora are not
called experts by themselves, instead sometimes being
recognised as such by others, for their merits. That, to my
mind, is a much fairer way of qualifying opinions and asserting
expertise.
One last remark: i buy mags, and not just because of the
smell of the paper.
At best, they tell me what gear iscoming out, what their strengths and weaknesses are,
and how they work with one or two types of equipment.
It is however very difficult to find in a mag all the combinations
of equipment pairing that one might want to find out about.
If I want to know how well (or not) a certain speaker will
work with an amp, or a source, the chances that someone
in a forum has tried that combination and can give me some
guidelines is much higher. It is no conclusion but it can
help a lot. And save people from going blind into bad
combinations.
Each to its own. Mags are useful and i respect a lot of what
is written there. Same goes to the fora. In the end we all
follow our ears, or so we should.
Jack
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
John Crabbe recently gave Quad the big up for using 20 quid orange lawnmower power cables for speaker cables at a dem and I think that's the only comment I've ever heard from him about cables.(huge rant about the obscene pricing of kettle leads just deleted because we don't want another thread about bloody cables do we)
:duck: Oh dear.....
It seems we may be in danger of pushing too hard on this subject now!
Rejoyce has made his point, and clarified his position, and although it gets up some peoples noses, it is still an opinion, and what we all join fora to give and gain.
As for the journalistic ability or impartiality of any person, it all lends itself to the old Victorian addage ' Let your eye (EAR?) be your guide, and your money the last thing you part with' Assuming we aren't collectively daft as brushes, there is little risk that any one opinion from any source will do us any harm.
I'll confess to buying all the monthlies, and loving the day that they turn up at the local papershop, I read 'em cover to cover, then review the old ones again and again. That said, the information contained therein has no greater influence on me than the concensus I glean from the varios hifi fora.
Dragging up stuff about RG is a bit 'gossipy' and to be honest I find the notion of discussing someones worth based on their salary extremely distasteful. God help us if this theme becomes popular. As far as what reviewers do or don't have to do to get paid, we all are in the same boat I guess within our own fields of paid employment, unless born to the landed gentry.
We'll only suffer with magazine writers opinions if we forget that 'you pays your money and takes your choice' at the newsagents, and having decided to buy, and having read , you can decide if you believe.
I certainly don't see much future in running someone down because of their industry knowledge or involvement, it won't promote the free flow of information which is the foundation of a good forum.
It seems we may be in danger of pushing too hard on this subject now!
Rejoyce has made his point, and clarified his position, and although it gets up some peoples noses, it is still an opinion, and what we all join fora to give and gain.
As for the journalistic ability or impartiality of any person, it all lends itself to the old Victorian addage ' Let your eye (EAR?) be your guide, and your money the last thing you part with' Assuming we aren't collectively daft as brushes, there is little risk that any one opinion from any source will do us any harm.
I'll confess to buying all the monthlies, and loving the day that they turn up at the local papershop, I read 'em cover to cover, then review the old ones again and again. That said, the information contained therein has no greater influence on me than the concensus I glean from the varios hifi fora.
Dragging up stuff about RG is a bit 'gossipy' and to be honest I find the notion of discussing someones worth based on their salary extremely distasteful. God help us if this theme becomes popular. As far as what reviewers do or don't have to do to get paid, we all are in the same boat I guess within our own fields of paid employment, unless born to the landed gentry.
We'll only suffer with magazine writers opinions if we forget that 'you pays your money and takes your choice' at the newsagents, and having decided to buy, and having read , you can decide if you believe.
I certainly don't see much future in running someone down because of their industry knowledge or involvement, it won't promote the free flow of information which is the foundation of a good forum.
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Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Well yes, except that the thread wasn't actually about Jason's journalism, or Mr Gregory's salary or even about cables It was about RG's characterisation of forum's like this as no better than the discussions of a bunch of drunks at closing time, with the added warning that we'd best watch what we say or else.
It was about RG's characterisation of forum's like this as no better than the discussions of a bunch of drunks at closing time, with the added warning that we'd best watch what we say or else.
DOH!!Dyslexia rules....No you really are speaking to a bunch of HiFi geeks.
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Originally posted by rewster
Dyslexia rules....No you really are speaking to a bunch of HiFi geeks.
Ahah
and here's me thinking you had mistyped and were talking about founding a dog forum, arf arf.
julian2002
Muper Soderator
a few years ago i used to frequent a hi-fi shop every so often, the guys in there were really into their kit and it was their passion to sell it too. i posted something on a forum about buying something from them and next time i went in they asked me if i was the guy who made the post. the point i'm trying to make is that ime the guys behind the counter are often on the fora too.
it's also just struck me that this thread has had well over 1000 views with no sign of stopping. i'm sure that this isn;t going to do next months sales of hi-fi plush and harm just to see if rg has any more to say - and god knows we've been pissing petrol onto that fire over the past 6 pages. is this just some strange phenomenon of viral marketing or meme spamming?
cheers
julian
it's also just struck me that this thread has had well over 1000 views with no sign of stopping. i'm sure that this isn;t going to do next months sales of hi-fi plush and harm just to see if rg has any more to say - and god knows we've been pissing petrol onto that fire over the past 6 pages. is this just some strange phenomenon of viral marketing or meme spamming?
cheers
julian
