HIFI+ slates web forums

Originally posted by Uncle Ants
Well yes, except that the thread wasn't actually about Jason's journalism, or Mr Gregory's salary or even about cables ;) It was about RG's characterisation of forum's like this as no better than the discussions of a bunch of drunks at closing time, with the added warning that we'd best watch what we say or else.
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Yes, that's a very good principle - we should all imagine we are standing in a pub talking to a bunch of drunks at closing time. Maybe then we would be more careful not to be rude or even a little abrupt on occasion, and the forum would be a more continuously happy place.
 
No mention of Nordost in the current issue AFAICT. Perhaps RG's learning his lesson, that he who pusheth the product too hard risks whatever credibility he may have, especially when said manufacturer is a frequent advertiser.

I still think he should sack himself and put Paul Messenger in charge.

-- Ian
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tony

Originally posted by ReJoyce
>>> Well as I said it was just a feeling, I could be wrong. However I do think the implications of recent comments here regards RG's/HiFi+' independence vis a vis Nordost were worthy of his consideration. If I were him I would have read them. It does seem oddly coincidental to me that a mention of forums was mentioned soon after.

The copy would have been written before that thread arose ... at least I think so.


>>> I certainly dont take the view that ZG is or should be of significance to "the industry" or to RG, its just the recent suggestions of bias toward Nordost and the cable debates generally ought to be of some relevance to RG. Funnily since this pro-Nordost bias was discussed here the bias seemed to get ever more obvious in HiFi+.

See quote about percieved importance above ;->


>>> Out of interest - what are the touchpoints then that the big players connect their brands and concepts to their customers - if its not via forums and magazines - then where/how? HiFi/AV shows? Shop fronts? TV ads?

I think the big brands have a real problem in reaching their customers. As they try to penetrate the high-end lifestyle market they rub up agfainst the real masters B&O and their marketing budget alone probably equals Naims turnover! I think most of it is still done through the old HiFi shop model. And the big brands will reward dealers that reward them.


>>> However I think you would probably agree it is hard to deny pressure is on reviewers to present "certain" products in the best possible light?

I have never had any pressure applied to me to give a good review to something. The stuff I have liked I have written about positively - simple as that.


>>> Can you honestly deny why people might feel there is an over emphasis on Nordost products in HiFi+ (based on the combo of articles and substantial advertising)?

I can see where it is coming from but I am a little less cynical because I know the people involved, they are enthusiasts! They think the stuff is good. I will be trying some myself soon based on these peoples, whom I trust, recommendation.


Cheers

Jason
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Balanced response I'd say. :)
Cheers
Greg
 
hmm.. slightly off topic but.... here's a few more thoughts. I'm trying to keep this short but would appreciate what you think.....

It was over 1 year ago that I stopped buying hifi plus. Nothing from forums, shops, friends or anything else did this. I quit the mag because every review I read was possitive. However they compared the products it would end up with " and that's high praise indeed".

I don't have the opportunity to own the most mad high end, but now I'm messing round with kit over £1k and ALL of it has it's character and weaknesses. No WAY could I write a review that didn't critisise a component for something, or at a minimum point out the character it has! Not a single component I own would be classified as perfect so what on earth are these reviews?

Well I got wondering and then figured that the reviews are like the people who've posted for the first time about their first amp. Reading glowing reviews from some kid about his A400X brings back memories. When I owned this amp I thought it was superb, magnificent etc. well it was compared to my £100 midi system!

I will sum this up!
Only someone who pratically ignores all of their previous experiences will find every piece of kit magnificent. Perhaps they have a short memory. For the rest of us, and especially for those privalided enough to own lots of kit, ever single product can be critised.

By the way, Hifi World a few years ago produced an article that first made me question a mags integrity, that was the DVD players that are better than all other CD players. Remember it? The only mag I actually trust now is Hifi News and the only ears I trust are my own!

Cheers! Tim
 
very good point Tim,

maybe there just aren't any bad products made anymore,and the difference them is diminishing,and as the prices get ever more silly the cynicism from consumers grows,particularly with tweaks (when will someone upgrade blu-tak with a sound deadening compound used by NASA?)
 
Tim - AFAIK HiFi+ actually has a policy of only publishing good reviews. That is, if they review something and they don't like it, they just won't publish it but the manufacturer gets to see the comments.

It's perhaps one way to keep the advertisers happy and try to stay relatively objective. The other mags (particularly HFC and WHF which give out silly "scores") consistently give good reviews and, worse, something that got 5 stars 3 months ago suddenly only gets 3 or 4 when compared to the latest and greatest. This give the impression of continuous improvement which is of course largely bollox.

Even after all the things I've said about HiFi+ it's still one of the mags I enjoy reading most. The other is HiFi News. The rest I generally don't bother with. HiFi World rarely has anything in it that interests me WHF is just "What TV" and HFC isn't far off. I have an electronic subscription to Stereophile (only $15 a year so pretty good value) but TBH I rarely read more than 10% of each issue.

The problem for the mags is that people are far more likely to trust peer experience than some reviewer and the advent of the internet means that the population of "peers" you can chat to is almost limitless.

Michael.
 
Originally posted by Saab
possibly,but mr Rejoyce didnt exactly help by claiming he worked in a shop and could spot a forum user from the "real" customers,which now makes me giggle tbh,quite hilarious statement,but not taken too seriously:)
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I'll try to make this a little less funny.

I don't claim to have worked in a shop, I did. If you want proof please call Phonography in Ringwood Hampshire 01425 461230 and Phil, Drew or Paul can attest to my helping them out off and on. It was in this very shop that I met Roy Gregory and where he asked me to write some record reviews for this new magazine he was starting, the rest is history ... perhaps there will be a blue plaque there one day ;->

I also didn't claim to be able to spot a forum user. In the course of helping customers I often asked them if they used any of the fora, mainly the Naim one as Phonography was a Naim dealership, and inevitably the answer was a negative.

I don't discuss forum use as if I am not a poster, I was trying to pass on my experience with the average HiFi purchaser. I have posted to the forums for many years, been banned from one even ;->

I think they are a useful place for many, especially if you want to save some money and I tried for many years to encourage people to post and join in with their experiences.

Hope that helps clarify things

Jason
 
Indeed it does,and I never doubted your honesty,apologies if thats how it came across.

out of interest,why did you ask if the customers read forums? why was that of interest to you?
 
Originally posted by Saab
Indeed it does,and I never doubted your honesty,apologies if thats how it came across.

out of interest,why did you ask if the customers read forums? why was that of interest to you?
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Somewaht bizarrely I felt that the customers and the fora would gain from them joining and sharing their experiences. Some posted once or twice, usually the nerdier ones like me ;->

I don't agree with Roy in his general dismissal of fora but I still see areas where they could be better and that is most likely if more people with a wider range of views post in them.


Cheers

Jason
 
:) Rejoyce,

Good point, if the fora gene pool doesn't occasionally get a change of water, we are all the worse off. New views, arguments, perspectives, good stuff. All that serves to stop the jist getting too bent out of shape.

So vive la difference, up the mentallist's, free speech may still yet happen (but not in the UK obviously, that's just silly)
 
I don't think anyone would argue with that.I think that these are sometimes very intimidating places to post in if you don't have an in depth knowlegde of HIFI technical-dom,that is perhaps why they aren't used more than they are,I dunno.
 
Intimidating is about right,


Having been a newbie in hifi, through to mad fan of hifi, through to having a modest position within hifi, and all of this combined with fora usage, I have seen some odd happenings, and some wildly distorted situations occur. Bear in mind we can all pick holes in each other if we want, and it is sometimes easy to create a groundswell of opinion with willing participants. That is where the users start to feel uncomfortable.

I also think there are some real gems of information knocking about, and some fine minds at work with a broad range of knowledge skills and experience. Also a certain loyalty is generated which is a good thing, someone mentioned a 'pub' atmosphere earlier, and I have to say, if I found a pub where everyone drinking was as into hifi as me, I'd soon be an alchoholic!

So as to the original point, there is one thing worse than being 'talked about' (re RG comments) and that is 'not being talked about' I guess that is where Rejoyce is coming from too.
 
The only negative review of a hifi product I can ever remember in any magazine was a review of a pair of ART speakers in Gramophone magazine a few years ago (they were similar size and price to Totem Arros but cannot remember the model name). it was 3 or 4 years ago. I cannot remember exactly what was said but it was pretty unequivocal.

In the days when Gramophone was an independent magazine its Hifi contributors were often masters of the 'damn with faint praise' school of criticism.

However since its takeover by Haymarket magazines its Audio section is now an offshoot of What Hifi - with a growing emphasis on AV products that must surely have limited appeal to the core readership of this institution. But to its credit I have still seen some examples of the 'damn with faint praise' reviews in recent issues.
 
The Gramaphone

Alan

The Gramaphone is the only decent magazine left. The others are of kindergarten standard in comparison. The Gramaphone says what is necessary, the others are just out to fill up pages with unnecessary waffle with the writer on an ego trip.

The advantage of the Gramaphone is that its musical reviews follow a definite pattern which allows the experienced reader to gauge how his tastes compare with theirs and they do not have to review 50 pieces of kit every month, so they review as necessary.

I think the mags will survive but mainly for newbies.

For the rest of us, the mags are dated dinosaurs.

Regards

Mick
 
Re: The Gramaphone

Originally posted by mick parry
Alan
...
Mick
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OMG - the first ever post of Mr P with every word of which I agree fully :yikes: (although I also think G's not now quite what it used to be). What with this, his new lifestyle (see "What do you want from a job") sounding just about perfect, and "Grumpy Old Men" being one of the best progs on TV....it looks as if senility and the prostate op is much closer than I would like to admit. ;)
 
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Guys,

I guess that after all the recent personal attacks, Mr Gregory has decided to, rightly or wrongly, exercise his right to reply. One thing he mentions which is true is that as a reviewer you write articles under your own name but on internet forums, many are reluctant to use their own names and so use pseudonyms. Also, another thing he mentioned (which I will paraphrase) is that the internet is open to abuse by individuals with personal or corporate agendas perhaps against certain brands and they seemingly get away with it with no challenge from the manufacturers. The sub pushing issue was just one such corporate agenda.

So whilst I agree that he may have been reacting, partly, to comments on this forum about his Nordost write-ups (which I must say seemed OTT), to date no ZeroGainer has been able to prove or disprove his comments or experiences with the cables (or have they?). One such experience was using the Nordost cables with Cyrus amplifier & PSX-R power supply. In this test RG claimed that the Nordost power cable (Shiva or Vishnu) made a bigger improvement to the amplifier's sound than the Cyrus built PSX-R power supply. To date I have not seen a single comment on this board as to whether he was right or just making it up yet he was criticised for that. I realise that not all his tests can be checked especially where exotic products are concerned but Cyrus & Nordosts products are readily available especially to RG's U.K. critics so why not check out if some of his claims are genuine or just sherry driven?:D

FWIW, I agree that the standard of reviewing especially amongst the U.K. & some U.S. reviewers/magazines has taken a huge nosedive recently. Many products have faults which buyers should be aware of but are not published, instead the product is referred back to the manufacturer so that the product does not get a negative review. Strange is it not? Also, this issue of manufacturers choosing a specific reviewer to review their products is one that I don't get (or is there a good reason for this?). Is it any wonder then, that they are under such pressure with accusations of collusion between them and the manufacturers/distributors? Personally, I think it's about time reviewers/magazines as a whole got their acts together and in case they didn't know it, internet discussion forums are here to stay.;)




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.:D
 
Lawrie

The main valid criticism of internet forums is the ability of us lot to use false names and addresses.

I would insist that anyone who wishes to subscribe to a forum has to provide a valid email address (not hotmail or the like) but something that can be traced by the moderator.

That way anyone can call themselves what they want and remain anonymous to the world at large but can be traced by the moderator if the individual needs to becontacted for any reason.

Regards

Mick
 
Originally posted by Lawrie
... Also, this issue of manufacturers choosing a specific reviewer to review their products is one that I don't get (or is there a good reason for this?). Is it any wonder then, that they are under such pressure with accusations of collusion between them and the manufacturers/distributors? Personally, I think it's about time reviewers/magazines as a whole got their acts together and in case they didn't know it, internet discussion forums are here to stay.;)
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The reasons that manufacturers choose specific reviewers for their products are quite clear and perfectly valid.

I chose Paul Messenger to review my speakers for a number of reasons. He's been in the game a long time, has reviewed hundreds of speakers so he knows what he's talking about. He's got good ears. He's rightly earnt the respect of his peers and the public alike for giving truthful reviews and telling it how he sees it. As far as I know, he can't be bought. In the process of reviewing my speakers (he listened to them for about a month) he was also generous with his suggestions of which areas he believed could be tuned and improved. I like the man.

I have spent many tens of thousands of pounds to get my company and its products where they are today. I have given up my job and sold my house to generate funds. As I have a young family this was a serious decision to make.

Should I then give my speakers to any reviewer at random? Some magazines use new companies' products as lambs to be sacrificed on the alter of 'no advertising spend'. Some reviewers expect to be 'looked after' - I believe that this goes on in many industries and, unfortunately, hi-fi is no exception. Other reviewers are over influenced by whether they like the product designer, manufacturer or distributor on a personal level. Many reviewers don't have the critical faculties to tell the good from the dross anyway.

I have also been approached by several web-based publications who would like to review the products. I always ask what sort of equipment they intend to use with the speakers. Some have told me that they believe that it's not important and any equipment priced over a couple of hundred pounds is good enough and it all sounds similar anyway. :eek:

I tell you Lawrie, it's a minefield out there. A manufacturer, especially a new manufacturer, must tread very carefully indeed.

Incidentally, I chose Hi-Fi+, rather than other magazines that Mr. Messenger writes for because it's a high-quality, glossy magazine with cool photos that make good publicity material for Seventh Veil. Also, I like the smell. ;)
 
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