Musing following some cable posts...

George Sallit said:
My problem with ABX is its inconsistency. These tests have shown no differences in amps, have you not heard differences in amps?
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In sighted tests, yes. I've never blind tested an amp. If I did, and if I found I couldn't distinguish it in such a test, I certainly would not immediately assume the test was at fault. I don't know why people get so uptight about the possibility that a test may show they can't hear everything they imagine they can, I'm completely relaxed about it when it happens to me.

So as I understand it you agree that there may be cable differences but they are so subtle it ain't worth the money and there is no 'scientific proof' of these differences. Or am I misinterpreting your views.
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Value for money isn't the issue, except in the sense that there's nothing an expensive cable does that a cheap cable can't. Cables can sound different if they are deliberately engineered to do so, but that just means they are deliberately wrong. Passing an audio signal is a relatively trivial task and cheap off the shelf cables can do the job perfectly well. Boutique cable companies who plait off the shelf wire, stick it in a sheath, and sell it at inflated prices, are simply selling cheap wire in a fancy package.

I also agree that there is some real bollox spoken by some cable manufacturers, but not all.
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I've never come across a cable company that didn't talk bollocks, frankly :-)

I'm aware that Nordost make their own cable. One of their laughably expensive cables was one that I heard making a small difference in a test at Dev's, but I thought it sounded less good than a freebie set of red and black ICs. Perhaps Nordost cables are deliberately designed to sound a bit wrong, for a lot of audiophiles it seems hearing a difference is more important than working out whether something is actually an improvement. Having said that, I've sat through Lars' Nordost cable dems at a couple of shows and thought that none of the cable swaps he was doing made any noticeable difference at all. The fact that he kept turning the volume up each time he put a more expensive cable in was entirely coincidental, of course, heaven forbid that he should try to kid people by doing the old volume trick :-)

-- Ian
 
Sorry if this has been asked earlier but...

What if you've participated in blind tests and have not heard any differences to speak of during the tests yet clearly hear a difference in real-world cable swaps or ordinary cable replacements over time?

Do any of you believe an individual in the scenario above will suddenly refuse to believe what he hears because of his test results? I'm genuinely interested in all opinions here, gentlemen. I truly find it hard to believe some would doubt their senses so to speak (...and deny them for the rest of their lives!)

regards,

dave
 
Paul Ranson said:
There's no room for doubt in your mind? No consideration that what you believe you hear may be affected by factors other than the actual sound you experience? You realise you are denying a hundred years of well-founded science?

Paul
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Have you considered for a second that I might hear it, and you not, or is it too much for your closed mind...
 
Jimbo said:
Well this thread as gone on for quite awhile. The thread starter has been very quiet hasnt he. Tried to contact him and no reply. Must have gone away me thinks. I thought something was amiss when the comments dried up. It seems we may have been set up. Nice one Pete. Well the skeptics keep saying we are delusioned but really arent they the ones that are. The brain processes the sounds the ears are only the vessels. This possibly proves that the non believers are short of them. Jim.
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Some guys want to make the forum zero gain, like someone mentioned in another thread, maybe because they have hearing problems, or other...

The guys that know and try do do something, are chased away, I rarely see wadiameister anymore, now Zanash, Effen, etc...
 
melorib said:
Have you considered for a second that I might hear it, and you not, or is it too much for your closed mind...
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If you can hear it 'in the room' but can't discriminate under controlled conditions, you are experiencing the effect of uncontrolled / unmodelled variables 'in the room' not the effect of the cable itself. None of this matters if you enjoy what you hear. What does matter is when vendors make unverified product claims i.e. that their cables are 'superior' in some technically unspecified or (more often) ill-defined way, in order to profit. Under those circumstances, I think scepticism is an an entirely reasonable reaction. That's all.
 
How do you know if I can or cannot discriminate under controlled conditions... :confused:

I am not discussing vendor's claims, as with all products, some are honest, others so so...
 
blackdog said:
What if you've participated in blind tests and have not heard any differences to speak of during the tests yet clearly hear a difference in real-world cable swaps or ordinary cable replacements over time?

Do any of you believe an individual in the scenario above will suddenly refuse to believe what he hears because of his test results? I'm genuinely interested in all opinions here, gentlemen. I truly find it hard to believe some would doubt their senses so to speak (...and deny them for the rest of their lives!)
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When individuals discover their experience of something is a psychological manifestation e.g. auto-suggestion then yes, that experience usually ceases as the rational mind takes over. In those instances where the experience continues the individual may be suffering from true believer syndrome, a cognitive disorder.
 
johnfromnorwich said:
What does matter is when vendors make unverified product claims i.e. that their cables are 'superior' in some technically unspecified or (more often) ill-defined way, in order to profit. Under those circumstances, I think scepticism is an an entirely reasonable reaction. That's all.
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I would think that if that is your opinion, and the manufacturer is in the UK, then you would have valid grounds to take it to the Trading Standards people for investigation. To my (limited) knowledge, none of the cable manufacturers, whose claims cannot be measurably verified, have ever been legally challenged. Now's your chance, John, Ian et al.
 
Czechchris said:
I would think that if that is your opinion, and the manufacturer is in the UK, then you would have valid grounds to take it to the Trading Standards people for investigation. To my (limited) knowledge, none of the cable manufacturers, whose claims cannot be measurably verified, have ever been legally challenged. Now's your chance, John, Ian et al.
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In a previous life I used to do statuatory compliance testing for trading standards (and others). The problem with the wording of the Trades Descriptions Act 1968 is that if you don't publish any graphs / statistics / or 'testing by persons and results thereof', then they can't be shown to be fraudulent. Stick to subjective assessments and 'reviews' and you're in the clear. Neat eh?
 
mosfet said:
When individuals discover their experience of something is a psychological manifestation e.g. auto-suggestion then yes, that experience usually ceases as the rational mind takes over. In those instances where the experience continues the individual may be suffering from true believer syndrome, a cognitive disorder.
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Nicely put, Mossie. This describes my experience exactly. I found that I was hearing what I wanted to hear, and therefore I was hearing "improvements" that actually weren't there at all. This has been reinforced by every subsequent experience (including one in which £400 of Nordost Red Dawn IC didn't sound any different from a freebie that came with a Sony cassette deck).
 
tones said:
Nicely put, Mossie. This describes my experience exactly. I found that I was hearing what I wanted to hear, and therefore I was hearing "improvements" that actually weren't there at all. This has been reinforced by every subsequent experience (including one in which £400 of Nordost Red Dawn IC didn't sound any different from a freebie that came with a Sony cassette deck).
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So the adoption of the Scientific Method in this case shields anyone from hearing what isn't there...interesting.

Thanks guys,

dave
 
Have you considered for a second that I might hear it, and you not, or is it too much for your closed mind...
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Until you show that you can hear it then it remains a matter of what you believe you hear.
How do you know if I can or cannot discriminate under controlled conditions...
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Because if you could then somebody would have demonstrated it by now and made a significant contribution to human knowledge?

Paul
 
I am fed up of these non believers saying prove we can hear it. You prove to us you cant hear it. Jim.
 
I'm fed up with these threads.

Jim, it can't be proved someone can't hear a difference, its not possible, so there isn't any point in asking. Just like you can't prove the non existence of God or Pink Fairies.

It can be (maybe) be proved that you CAN hear a difference (if you really can) within a certain degree of statistical confidence, assuming a suitable test can be devised.

You COULD prove the existence of God or Pink Fairies IF they exist (a might big IF I think we'll agree) and if you could devise a suitable test. That isn't to say I believe in either God or Pink Fairies. Just because it could theoretically be proved doesn't mean it will be because they may not. Personally I suspect its far more likely there is a difference between cables than that either God or Pink Fairies exist. Its about what you can and can't prove, not what is actually true.

So the most you can say is if a difference can be heard and if a suitable test is devised it should be possible to prove with a certain level of statistical confidence that a difference can be heard. Which if it sounds like a lot of hedging, it is, but that's statistics for you.

I don't believe in God and won't until someone proves it. The cable non believers won't believe in cables until someone proves it. The logic is the same.
 
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I see the pretty much the same discussion has transfered to the double blind test thread - This has degenerated to what I can only describe as psyco babble very little to do with hifi . Final score believers 51% non belivers 49% (poor spelling intentional). Its important (to me)that I get my post count up - so Im contrubuting.
 
ADPully said:
Its important (to me)that I get my post count up - so Im contrubuting.
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Aye, go to the private ads section and give everyone on page 2 a bump. That'll make you at least twenty friends and increase your post count by over 100% :)

edit of course it might make you 20 enemies from the current page 1, but life's like that
 


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