naim...load of tosh??

[Marco]

Originally posted by merlin

Marco,

I have had the pleasure of using most of the likely suspects in that area, Mana, Townsend, Quadraspire, Finite Element, and mains treatments from Trichord, isotek, Jaya, Kimber and Shunyata. And yes I agree that they can have a profound affect, at other times they are all but un noticeable. Hutter is next on the list.

Merlin, each to his own, and I admire your attention to detail, but I would find your approach rather tiring. It must also be somewhat challenging, to say the least, getting a balanced sound from all your bits of kit on different supports, but I'm sure you know how. Fair enough if Mana's not your thing, although I doubt you heard it at its best, and kudos for your liking of Finite Elemente. The pagode is my fav rack after Mana, it kicks the Naim Fraim into touch performance-wise, and makes it look distinctly like shabby 80's surplus stock from a Harrods end of season furniture clearance sale. You lose Brownie points on the: "Hutter is next on the list." bit, though...dear oh dear, not to worry

"I just can't imagine enting into a "mine's bigger than yours" playground debate without actually seeing your opponent's weapon"

Sounds a bit too much like school days in the showers after 5-a-side football for me

Marco.

 

[Steven Toy]

Tone,

The first time I heard your system it was analytical, extremely fussy about recordings and the treble sounded rather splashy at times. It was impressive but my own more humble system had it for breakfast in terms of musicality, imho. This was the umodified Wadia, iirc.

I haver been back to your place a further three times and on each occasion your system sounded very musical indeed - until the MA speakers began to sound congested, but then we swapped them for the Meadowlarks and all was sweetness and light again.

In terms of pitch, rhythm and timing, Tone, your system is up there with the very best from Salisbury, if not even better, but having said that, your Wadia is heavily modified, and I doubt that a completely unmodified one could take on any Naim player from the CDX upwards.

Bub,

I can say what I like/dislike about Marco's system, (and it certainly wouldn't be all good) without upsetting him. Why do you think that is?

I'll give you a clue: what I say at the chez lui time matches what I say about it later on message boards such as this.

Marco,

My reckoning is that a pair of Stealth Monoblocks will destroy a six-pack of 135s.

The Stealth monoblocks are fantastic.

 

[The Devil]

Steven, diplomacy is a wonderful thing.

I suppose a Stealth might destroy a 135 if you dropped it from high enough.

 

[Marco]

Originally posted by The Devil

I know that the ATC MOSFET amps are nothing special in themselves, but they don't need to be because of the elegance of the ATC design.

Each amplifier is carefully matched to its driver; there is no crossover to contend with, and they have huge 'headroom'.

I don't think that any passive system with power amp and crossover could ever hope to come anywhere near the level of performance that the active ATC monitors have.

I totally disagree, and would love to hear a shoot-out between a pair of Stealth monoblocks driving the passive version of your ATCs, and your current active set-up.

What I'm convinced would happen is that the active set-up would do some things better, and, equally, the Stealth's would bring things to the party the active system currently doesn't produce; namely giving a more organic presentation that appeals to the heart more than the head. Your system is great, but it has the tendency at times to be over-analytical at the expense of the music, pulling apart recordings rather than delivering them with a sense of ease. I know you like the 'warts and all' presentation of your active set-up, but it's not entirely natural, and sometimes it can become fatiguing. Just a thought, but why do you think JW kept his Stealth and Briks instead?

Marco.

 

[sideshowbob]

Can't agree with that. ATC actives smoke the passive versions, good as they are, and the amps in the actives are excellent, mostly because, as Bub says, they're optimised precisely for the job they have - to drive a specific drive unit - and the crossover is before the amplification.

I also entirely disagree that an active ATC setup is "over-analytical". It's just accurate. If there's warmth in the recording you'll hear it, if there isn't you won't. This is high fidelity, which is sort of the whole point.

Bub's weak point is his preamp, not his power amps, IMO. (Said by somebody who's never heard his system. Presumptious, moi?!)

-- Ian

 

[domfjbrown]

HOW THE HELL can a system with active ATC 100s have no bass? This is one area where (even though I haven't heard them) I might have to disagree, Tone, as Henryt's piddly little ATC 50As had a fair ammount of bass for their size...

Mind you, I can't really say much - my system HAS no bass - it's a real mess due to the overcrowded and slightly-too-large room my little Elas are in...

Guys, can we try and cut all the Naim/Mana/everything else wars just for a bit? It's boring the tits off of me to be honest...

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by domfjbrown
HOW THE HELL can a system with active ATC 100s have no bass? This is one area where (even though I haven't heard them) I might have to disagree, Tone, as Henryt's piddly little ATC 50As had a fair ammount of bass for their size..

Dom, maybe the biggest factor governing a hifi of all, the room & a wooden floor, look at the problem Henry has with bass ( Lack of it, although we are getting there now). Tone

 

[Marco]

Originally posted by sideshowbob

Can't agree with that. ATC actives smoke the passive versions, good as they are, and the amps in the actives are excellent, mostly because, as Bub says, they're optimised precisely for the job they have - to drive a specific drive unit - and the crossover is before the amplification.

Of course active ATCs are more technically competent than the passive versions, their design ensures that is the case, but 'technically competent' doesn't always equate with the best result musically speaking.

There are places for analytical 'tools', namely in a recording studio, and there are places for speakers that just play music. With all due respect, you are in no position to say what the sound would be like if Stealth amplification was employed in place of the ATC amps driving James' speakers passively unless you have heard both his speakers and the amps concerned. So have you?

"Bub's weak point is his preamp, not his power amps, IMO. (Said by somebody who's never heard his system. Presumptuous, moi?!)"

Yes, I think so! But, leaving that aside, what would you suggest as an alternative?

Marco.

 

[merlin]

There's nowt wrong with the 100's bass, other than the fact that it has ultra low distortion. for most users of inferior kit, this leads to the impression that they have no bass. What they do have is quality bass, something most observers are unfamiliar with.

The first reaction of most listeners to true low distortion is "where's the bass", as evidenced by comments regarding Quad 989's, Velodyne Subs, Martin Logan subs and others.

Some people do prefer the sound of distortion as they find it adds to what they think of as musicality. Still no place for that in the studio, or in a genuine high fidelity set up.

It is entirely possible that the room is of course playing havoc with the bottom end, it generally does in most houses and the best you can acheive is a reasonable set of compromises. One thing is certain though. The ATC's and their amps are not at fault. James are they the pro versions with the bass control on the front?

 

[Marco]

Originally posted by domfjbrown

HOW THE HELL can a system with active ATC 100s have no bass?

That is total crap, and, no offence to Tone, but I really don't understand where he's coming from saying that. ATC 100s aren't perfect (is any speaker??), but I can assure you, when it's in the recording, these speakers have the ability to deliver prodigious amounts of bass, tightly and tunefully, and with massive extension, but the key is they do it without flab or overhang. Maybe Tone likes the bass overhang effect associated with most subwoofers?

I know from my own speakers, which, although smaller, have a similar pedigree to bub's, and they can sound bass-light on some material - but that's only because it's not in the recording. When it's in the recording, and a bass line kicks in, you feel it rattling your chest cavity. Both his ATCs and my Spendors use 12" bass drivers, but his ATCs have a huge dedicated power amp driving each woofer, so even if you haven't heard them, it doesn't take much imagination to work out that bass-light they most certainly are not...

"Guys, can we try and cut all the Naim/Mana/everything else wars just for a bit? It's boring the tits off of me to be honest... "

What war? As far as I can see, we're all having a nice chat, and exchanging our views constructively.

Marco.

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
ATC actives smoke the passive versions, good as they are, and the amps in the actives are excellent, mostly because, as Bub says, they're optimised precisely for the job they have - to drive a specific drive unit - and the crossover is before the amplification.

I also entirely disagree that an active ATC setup is "over-analytical". It's just accurate. If there's warmth in the recording you'll hear it, if there isn't you won't. This is high fidelity, which is sort of the whole point.

Agree completely. This is hi-fi. If you don't like what you hear with the ATCs, don't blame the messenger. I don't think they sound 'analytical' at all, they just play the music. Every record or CD sounds different from the last, which is how it should be.

Marco, the reason that JW uses briks and Stealth is twofold, but I'm not going into it here. I personally think that the ATCs run rings around isobariks, and all other 'hi-fi' speakers which I have heard. The pro boys just laugh at domestic speakers, and I know why.

Merlin, they are SCM 100A SLs with no bass controls on them. Professional studio control monitors.

 

[wadia-miester]

Take it which ever way you want Marco, when I heard them they lacked for me period,they certained filled the room yes, however there is so much more to be had, and again depends on what you use as a reference, bass is more than volume. Speed, agility, depth, tightness, control, intergration are all important parts of picture, maybe James new TT mods will have helped this I'm sure.
I'm more than happy with what I said, now lets turn it on it's head, how about we put a pair of Atc 100's in your room, see what happens shall we? ( I know I've tried some in mine)
I know what a fully active ATC 70 towers can do in a proper room with chord amps doing the work.
135's, why not try so amps that give control and speed, see what your speakers are really capable of?
Please feel free to dicuss this with yourselves, I'll await the the outcome with joy Tone

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Dom, maybe the biggest factor governing a hifi of all, the room & a wooden floor, look at the problem Henry has with bass ( Lack of it, although we are getting there now). Tone

Oh my God. Don't tell us. Please!

You of all people are 'helping' this poor man with his 'lack of bass' are you?

Tone, this is hi-fi, not 'Max Power'-stylee put-a-big-bass-driver-in-the-boot-of-this-tarted-up-Mondeo-and-blow-the-doors-off.

Any fool can do that.

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by The Devil
Oh my God. Don't tell us. Please!

You of all people are 'helping' this poor man with his 'lack of bass' are you?

Tone, this is hi-fi, not 'Max Power'-stylee put-a-big-bass-driver-in-the-boot-of-this-tarted-up-Mondeo-and-blow-the-doors-off.

Any fool can do that.

Fraid not James, sorry BTW whats a Mondeo?, it that a form of Martial Arts

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by The Devil
Merlin, they are SCM 100A SLs with no bass controls on them. Professional studio control monitors.

James I only asked because tim at HHB was saying that the versions supplied to the larger studios are equipped with a bass control that allows the engineer to simulate the output of less accurate and desireable loudspeakers.

Tony, for once I do have to say, that ATC100's will murder even Graham's Meadowlarks if one is looking for tight fast low distortion bass reproduction. You get what's on the recording, if there is bass there, you will know!! Try Nitin and Talvin on these and you will see what I mean. Because they stop and start properly down below, they can seem to have less bass than crappy distorted 6.5" units suffering from more damaging smear than IDS. Proper bass really is about less being more IMO

 

[Marco]

Originally posted by The Devil

I personally think that the ATCs run rings around isobariks, and all other 'hi-fi' speakers which I have heard. The pro boys just laugh at domestic speakers, and I know why.

I agree with your last statement. After all, my SP100s are also designed to be professional monitors, and are licensed by the BBC for that very purpose. I just feel that your ATC amps skew the balance too much in favour of analysis over 'musicality' (sorry, couldn't think of a better word).

Regarding, your first comment, I though that, too, until I heard Hermann's rig...

The (bloody massive) room, the Stealth's, and all that Mana, proved to be quite a heady cocktail

Marco.

 

[wadia-miester]

Merlin, with the right gear and room maybe, but I still ain't heard a pair do it yet

 

[The Devil]

Tone, you heard it but didn't realise quite what you were hearing. Inexperience on your part.

Marco, just think how good the ATCs would sound in Hermann's room. He could probably accommodate the 150s, come to think of it. You are of course entitled to your opinion about the 'analytical' thing, which I don't understand. I think they are just accurate, that's all.

Why aren't you posting on the Naim forum? People are murmuring that you were banned.

 

[Marco]

Originally posted by wadia-miester

Take it which ever way you want Marco, when I heard them they lacked for me period,they certained filled the room yes, however there is so much more to be had, and again depends on what you use as a reference, bass is more than volume. Speed, agility, depth, tightness, control, intergration are all important parts of picture...

Tony, after reading that, I'm more convinced than ever you and I have very different ideas as to what is considered accurate and 'true' bass. I'd love you to come round to my place and offer your comments on my system's bass performance these days, just to confirm beyond a shadow of doubt that we're coming from two different directions

You said:

"Now lets turn it on it's head, how about we put a pair of Atc 100's in your room, see what happens shall we? ( I know I've tried some in mine)
I know what a fully active ATC 70 towers can do in a proper room with chord amps doing the work.
135's, why not try so amps that give control and speed, see what your speakers are really capable of?"

That would be very interesting (from and educational point of view). I'm more than up for that. Are you supplying the necessary equipment?

Tony, 135s aren't perfect, but let me assure you when set-up on Mana (in my small-ish room), each with a blank case fuse, and powered by two dedicated 10mm mains spurs through unfused hard-wired hydras, speed and control they lack not! :MILD:

Btw, you still haven't answered the question I asked you yesterday about you and Naim gear. Scroll back a few pages to see what I'm referring to, and please give me answer.

Cheers,
Marco.

 

[michaelab]

This thread has now gone long past it's original purpose and deterioated into a slanging match between old enemies from the Naim, Mana and PFM forums so I've closed it.

The last few pages of the thread were moved to the kindergarten.

Michael.