new scientist

It always comes back to the same thing really. If your ears convince you enough to spend the amount in question then the decision is yours.

My holistic audio comment was based in something I feel about some of these areas. People will swear blind it works and people will happily take your money if you do. The science is a bit hazy but if people are happy at the end of it then who cares?
You pays your money you takes your choice.

 

i don't think anyone doubts that cables with a none symetrical shield/drain set up are directional.

i think many of us are having issues with the idea that symmetrical cables are directional,as this would imply that wire is directional.


I guess the issue it the 'ALL' in RA claims.

 

Couldn't agree more. What hacks me off though sometimes is when people argue with you and insist that what your ears are telling you is wrong

I agree. There is a lot of snake oil out there, but there are also plenty of things that work. It's a matter of sorting out the wheat from the chaff, and not allowing cynicism to override an open mind.

Exactly. Science with hi-fi is fine up to a point and can be useful, but as the appreciation of hi-fi is subjective the effectiveness of applying science to it is moot.

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Paul

 

Paul, on the whole I agree with everything you're saying above.

I do think it's healthy that some of the more dubious claims made by hifi retailers are challenged, however, so that prospective buyers have the opportunity of reading a bit of "cynicism" from us sceptical types as well.

In my opinion, a lot of stuff is bought (and not returned to the shop) due to either 1) the placebo effect or 2) the "emperor's new clothes" effect.

You go and buy some cables from xyz after reading some promotional stuff that assures you that "scientific tests" have demonstrated that they will bring such-and-such a benefit to your system. So you take them home and get everything connected up.

Maybe you notice an improvement. I would suggest this could merely be a placebo effect. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Certainly there's a good argument to say that even if it is - so what? If the listener experiences an improvement, that's great. It doesn't necessarily matter how or why.

But maybe you don't hear any diifference. This seems concerning given the manufacturer's claims. Perhaps there's something wrong with your system or with your ears. Mildly embarrassed by your shortcomings you try to forget about the fifty quid that just went down the drain.

But if at some point during this process you read something challenging those retailer's claims, then maybe you can stop worrying about why you can't hear the difference that "everyone else" can, take the cables back to the shop, ask for your money back and spend it on buying some music instead.

I've got no big argument with someone who says "try these cables - me and my mates reckon they sound great" (although I might disagree with them).

It's the "buy these cables - exhaustive testing in our quantum probability laboratory has demonstrated superior elctron crystal grain energies" type stuff that irritates me because essentially, it's trying to part people with their cash on false pretences.

The scientific tradition is all about basing decisions upon rigorously tested evidence. This is what gives it its respectibility and why "science" is attractive to advertisers.

It's the hi-jacking of science (via sciencey-sounding phrases and unsupported claims) that really has to be challenged. If no-one does this, then proper science becomes diluted and loses its value.

The phrase "open mind" has been mentioned a few times during this discussion ... I would suggest that an open mind is all about not rejecting ideas without considering them first. It's not incompatible with the principle of rejecting ideas if they don't stand up to scrutiny.

Incidentally, it's interesting to note that there does, in the end, seem to be a rational explanation as to why those chord cables may sound different one way round ... it's to do with what the shield is connected to rather than the "direction" of the conductors. A good example of the value of excluding external influences before coming to conclusions.

 

Turning kit on and off or breaking connections can alter sound a little - when changing cables.

 

Hi Owl. Nice answer!

Absolutely, and I agree. A little scepticism is healthy. The problem for me is when scepticism turns into cynicism. This state of mind is often the result of years of dismissing everything that fails to meet the approval of the sceptic's mindet. This I feel is an unhealthy state of affairs. It gets to the stage where the sceptic often loses out on things that are beneficial as a result of constantly being 'on the defensive'.

Yes that undoubtedly happens, but there is also a significant amount of stuff that's bought that genuinely works. I can only comment from my own experience in that regard and also others that I know.

Undoubtedly people's buying decisions are influenced by advertising material, and I also believe in the placebo effect you mention. Where I feel the danger here is, is that the "sceptics" have made their mind up that EVERYTHING is snake oil, and that it is always the case that the big bad dealers or manufacturers are out to get you. For sure that happens, it may even be the case most of the time, but thinking that you're being 'ripped off' all the time sets a dangerous precedent that can lead to people missing out on things that make genuine improvements, and that is where I think the hi-fi enthusiast can potentially be the loser.

My sentiments precisely. I think in hi-fi there's sometimes too much emphasis placed on WHY something does a particular thing. At the end of the day if your ears tell you there is an improvement and this leads to greater enjoyment of you system and your music, then why should you give a toss?

In circumstances like that presenting a sceptical/scientific approach to others works and is beneficial.

Totally agree. And it's that sort of stuff that gives the genuine manufacturers and hi-fi dealers a bad name, and it is also what tends to breed chaps like your good self

Again, totally agree. That totally devalues real science, which has a place in hi-fi, just maybe not as all-important a place as some people like to think. My view is that as an entity hi-fi and listening to music is subjective and therefore ultimately all that matters is what an individual hears, not what science 'proves'.

Exactly correct. Too many people poo-poo things without having any relevant direct exprience of the item they are poo-pooing! And often because according to science something or other is not 'possible', therefore they dismiss it out of hand without even trying it. This to me is a perfect example of a 'closed mind'.

If that's the case then it's fine with me. I know that I can both hear a difference when the cables are connected the 'right' way round, and that there was a difference (distinct improvement) over the cheapo patch leads I used before I got the Chords, and that's all that matters to me.

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Paul

 

Paul, it seems like we're pretty much in agreement on all that.

Just for the record, although I'm a committed sceptic (not just with regards to hifi) I consider myself an open-minded one. I certainly don't write everything off as snake oil, and I'm not of the "big guys are out to get us" mindset either.

By the way, I've found that one of the good things about getting older is that you can increasingly avoid that "emperors new clothes" syndrome as you gain the confidence to make up your own mind about stuff, which is really rather liberating.

Studying at art school, I was always suspicious of but mildly intimidated by some of the "art theory" spouted by many of those around me to justify their position. There was always the feeling that the reason it seemed nonsensical was because I didn't know or understand enough. Now, I've come to realise that the reason it seemed nonsensical was because in 80% of cases, it was. Which means that my visits these days to modern art galleries are more enjoyable because if I think it's bollocks, I just say so.

Similarly, I've recently been liberated somewhat from the habit of endless fiddling around with my hifi setup rather than just using it to listen to music.

Not that I've managed to kick that habit, entirely, however ....

 

Get rid of this guy

 

Hardly the Richard Dawkins of the cable world is he?

 

I've got nothing against sq but what he wrote to rollo was nasty. Slagging off someone's religious beliefs is bad form and uncalled for in a discussion about hi-fi. Come on guys let's keep it constructive :MILD:

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Paul

 

Glad to hear it, makes a refreshing change

What age are you dude out of interest?

And quite right too. I've always believed in telling it as I see it. Speaking your mind is undoubtedly liberating, but some people can't handle the truth and would rather their egos stroked. I value honesty and integrity.

There's nothing wrong with fiddling as long as you know when enough is enough. "Fiddling" is the only way you learn about things unless you're the type that can't think for himself. For most of us here hi-fi is as much a nerds hobby as it is about listening to music. That's fine as long as you don't lose sight of the real goal, and that's the enjoyment and appreciation of your CDs and records.

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Paul

 

to be a skeptic is good it implies an ability to look at both halves of the argument .....then accept neither

conversely a "naysayer" have painted themselves into the proverbial corner from which they can't escape. If there profound beliefs are found to be wrong there only option is a loss of face .or to stubbornly maintain there views at odds with the rest.
Few options then exist but for them to, except may shout louder and longer on topics ....that for many are now considered de rigeur, if not fact.

I'd like to think that I'm open minded, which for me means being able to accept things that I once thought were wrong ie that mains cable can make an audible difference or the cd lathe works ....though I'm still to be convinced by single conductor dirrectionality or super deep cryo or the latest marketing hype.

 

Zanash, naysayer is good but it's just another name for a pessimist or someone who perennially pooh-poohs everything, and unfortunately there are plenty of those on hi-fi forums! I'm glad that you're open-minded, willing to embrace new concepts, and can accept when you're wrong. It's the only way to make any progress with hi-fi.

My, all this agreeing with each other is nice isn't it? I wonder where all the "naysayer" types have gone that posted earlier in the thread...

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Paul

 

Closing in on 30 much more quickly than I'm comfortable with!

Good definition.

I'm not sure there was much "naysaying", really. Mostly justifiable scepticism and I don't think anyone's offered any convincing argument or evidence in support of this directionality thing yet.

 

you try 50 !

I was just trying to add a perspective with the skeptic, naysayer, open minded types ...I'm certain theres fence sitters too plus others that my addled brain can't think of.

 

Owl,

That's kind of what I thought. I'm 33, so more ancient than you

Oh, the nay-saying is there all right. But I'm not boring enough to go back through the thread and pull the out relevant quotes! I would argue that some of the "Justifiable scepticism" is open to debate

I agree, but then I never claimed that "directionality" definitely existed, merely that I could hear a difference depending on what way my cables were plugged in. Whether the mechanism responsible for that experience was the effect of "cable directionality", I'm unsure.

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Paul

 

nicely put.....

I certainly would not rule it out .....I've certainly heard the effect but equally would not attribute to electron swimming the wrong way or what ever the theory is ...in my case its much more likely the pseudo balanced thing.

interestingly.... two silver cables made by myself ..
one has both conductors in the dirrection of being drawn the other with one each way .....sound difference none that I could detect ....

 

if i'm the naysayer in question, then you have me badged incorrectly.

when i see some solid theory to it, i'll open my eyes to it, when i hear it, i'll believe it.

my ears are always open.

but in 20+ years of enjoying hifi i haven't heard it yet.

 

No, sq, it wasn't you It's nice to know though that your ears are always open.

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Paul

 

That's interesting, Zanash. So, aside from this directionality thing, are we in agreement (and this question is aimed at everyone) that cables make a difference or not?

My view is that they do (my experience between cheapo patch leads and my Chords being a good example) but not necessarily because of directionality.

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Paul