The Devil
IHTFP
The Music room's all tits 'n' bums at the moment, which is nice.
Old ways vs new...
- Thread starter lowrider
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tones
compulsive cantater
Honourable exception for your fellow Portuguese RdS.
Originally posted by kermit
I,m probably wrong (again)
But arn,t Leowe picture tubes supplied by Phillips ?
So... Do you think all those CDPs are completely made in house...
There is a lot more to TVs than the tube, as to CDPs there is more than the transport... :MILD:
Originally posted by michaelab
Come on Antonio, we've done this whole thing to death now
What's the point in trying to drive a wedge between the two points of view? Calling objectivists "naysayers" is just as bad as calling subjectivists "gullible fools". Each point of view is valid and neither is calling the other a liar and there are similar numbers of people on both sides of the argument with a great deal of experience behind them - just as there are similar numbers on each side who are just armchair experts on the forums.
Suggesting that all objectivists are "spoilt brats" with no experience who just wander around forums with spec sheets is just rubbish I'm afraid. Your attempt to cast the subjectivists as holding the moral high ground is both wrong and extremely unhelpful
As I already said a number of times, there are no objectivists, we are all subjectivists... :JPS:
sideshowbob
Trisha
Antonio, give it a rest. This is utterly dull. You seem to be wilfully missing the point of the recent debates.
FWIW of course everyone here's a subjectivist - the debate has been about whether certain tweaks really make a difference or not, whether DBT is the only way to truly determine whether a listener really can hear a perceived difference, and whether manufacturers who make claims should justify those claims with evidence. That's all. 25 years ago, contrary to your post, the view that anything that measures the same must sound the same was more prevalent than it is now, there was no specialist cable industry to speak of, and the majority view in UK hi-fi was that speakers were more important than any other part of a system, given that all amps and all turntables basically sounded the same. (This is not my view, btw, but it was the common view at the time.)
I'd be interested if you could direct me to any post where someone has accused someone else of "lying" (your word) about hearing a difference when using a tweak, which seems to be your main beef. (Here's a clue: no-one has.)
-- Ian
FWIW of course everyone here's a subjectivist - the debate has been about whether certain tweaks really make a difference or not, whether DBT is the only way to truly determine whether a listener really can hear a perceived difference, and whether manufacturers who make claims should justify those claims with evidence. That's all. 25 years ago, contrary to your post, the view that anything that measures the same must sound the same was more prevalent than it is now, there was no specialist cable industry to speak of, and the majority view in UK hi-fi was that speakers were more important than any other part of a system, given that all amps and all turntables basically sounded the same. (This is not my view, btw, but it was the common view at the time.)
I'd be interested if you could direct me to any post where someone has accused someone else of "lying" (your word) about hearing a difference when using a tweak, which seems to be your main beef. (Here's a clue: no-one has.)
-- Ian
michaelab
desafinado
I don't think anyone would deny that they take into account many things other than how a bit of kit sounds when making a buying decision, not including the price which is an obvious factor.
Looks, build quality, features, where it was made etc. In that sense of course everyone makes subjective buying decisions but I don't think that was ever in question.
People clearly also would like to buy the kit that they think sounds the best (other factors notwithstanding) and that is also clearly a subjective judgment.
The point of difference amongst "objectivists" is that they would like to first establish that two bits of kit do actually sound different at all before making a subjective judgement as to which they prefer. If they sound the same then "how it sounds" is not an issue, just as if they were the same price, cost would not be an issue. The objectivist view is that many people (the so-called subjectivists) allow what they hear to be subjectively influenced by other factors so that they hear differences between two bits of kit that they would not be able to if they didn't know which one was playing.
Michael.
Ian,
My English might not be that good, but I can read what is beeing said, and that is no one can hear certain differences, in my book that is calling liars those who say they hear them...
About 25 years ago, the common sense, at least between audiophiles, was source first, speakers where an american invention, the brits used Quad or BBC monitors mainly... :MILD:
You are right, thank God there where no special cables then, I just had Sony gold plated terminals ICs and Monster speaker cables...
Why shouldnt I make my point, why should I just hear all the nonsense and be quiet...
My English might not be that good, but I can read what is beeing said, and that is no one can hear certain differences, in my book that is calling liars those who say they hear them...
About 25 years ago, the common sense, at least between audiophiles, was source first, speakers where an american invention, the brits used Quad or BBC monitors mainly... :MILD:
You are right, thank God there where no special cables then, I just had Sony gold plated terminals ICs and Monster speaker cables...
Why shouldnt I make my point, why should I just hear all the nonsense and be quiet...
sideshowbob
Trisha
No it isn't. Suggesting that someone can honestly believe they hear a difference under normal conditions, when a DBT may show they can't actually hear the difference when all other factors other than listening are removed, has no implication of lying at all.
I've said it before: I've often caught myself thinking I'd heard a major difference with something, only to discover over a longer period of comparison that I had in fact imagining the difference, or that it was less marked than I originally believed. I wasn't lying when I heard the difference, I wasn't lying when I realised I'd imagined or exaggerated it. I honestly thought I'd heard it.
Nowadays, even though I have no interest in DBTing anything, I assess a tweak, or a component change, on the basis of, first, whether I like it (that's all that really matters, after all), and second, whether I really think I could spot the difference blind. If I feel I can't do the latter, I resist the temptation to post threads about how jaw-dropping the improvement is, because I realise it's either subtle or psyco-acoustic. All cable changes I've experimented with (quite a few) fall into that category.
If you want to interpret this as me accusing someone of lying if they believe, contrary to my experience, that cables make massive differences, you are missing the whole point of the debate.
I honestly don't see why people get so defensive about the notion that hi-fi, for most people, isn't purely about listening, that we are all influenced by expectation, brand loyalties, assumption, aesthetics, and so on. It's so obviously true it seems to me to be beyond debate. All the DBTers are saying is, if audiophilia is really only about how something sounds, and nothing else, why not remove all other factors other than how it sounds from the equation, by evaluating gear using only one's hearing, i.e., blind. A reasonable question. You don't have to adopt DBT to understand that DBTers are asking perfectly sensible and valid questions, and are probably right about the psycho-acoustic basis of a lot of this hobby.
I'm not trying to stop you making any point you like, but starting two threads to insist that everyone's a subjectivist seems like one thread too many.
And I simply see no point in starting a thread accusing other forum members of being young and arrogant and inexperienced simply because they don't agree with you, or because they are prepared to accept that they enjoy hi-fi for reasons that are not exclusively to do with how it sounds.
-- Ian
My point is to try to make "them" understand that no one knows everything, most of all me, that there is no right and wrong, thats all...
I dont even have very expensive cables or tweaks, I try to get the cheapest solution for what I hear as a problem, I test it, confirm with my wife, who as no interest whatsoever in me spending more money in AV... :shame:
But I dont like anyone saying I dont know what I am saying, that is the only problem...
sideshowbob
Trisha
You've lost me there, I'm sure you know what you're saying, but I don't know what you're saying in that sentence...
-- Ian
Ultrasonic
Bo selecta!!
Ive seen Loewe TV's in action, nufin special at all considering the price, but by no means bad.. Most Sony TV's ive seen side to side with other leading brands are quite poor. Phillips do make nice valuble tv sets but the cream of the crop has toi be Toshiba.They have brillian tbroadcast picture quality and when fed with a decent dvd play via Componant video output it really is stunning. Best picture by far that ive ever seen has to be the 42" pioneer plasma(not the latest model, the preivous 1) finding Nemo was on and while it makes shite telly's look ok, it looked amazing on the pioneer.
Ultra
al IMHO of course
Ultra
al IMHO of course
Antonio,
I hear where you are coming from, but, given the more mature stance taken over the last couple of days, maybe it would be a good idea to let sleeping dogs lie.
I think it would be helpful in future for members to avoid the use of the term "imagine", as to be fair, this is somewhat condescending and insulting. It avoids the very real truth that we all have different hearing and systems, and that what may be non existant to say a Linn owner in his latter years, may be only to obvious to say a Bel Canto owner in his 30's.
There are certain threads that provoke by suggesting the person expressing his/her opinion is somehow defficient, Man being an example. Sadly it will never end, primarily because we are not all mature enough, and I include myself in that!
I hear where you are coming from, but, given the more mature stance taken over the last couple of days, maybe it would be a good idea to let sleeping dogs lie.
I think it would be helpful in future for members to avoid the use of the term "imagine", as to be fair, this is somewhat condescending and insulting. It avoids the very real truth that we all have different hearing and systems, and that what may be non existant to say a Linn owner in his latter years, may be only to obvious to say a Bel Canto owner in his 30's.
There are certain threads that provoke by suggesting the person expressing his/her opinion is somehow defficient, Man being an example. Sadly it will never end, primarily because we are not all mature enough, and I include myself in that!
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
Jolly good show.
Cup of tea anyone?
Cup of tea anyone?
michaelab
desafinado
That is the correct response
(My Toshiba 32" widescreen TV has outstanding picture quality)
Michael.
MO!
MOnkey`ead!
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ahem!
(I may be wrong)
I think Ian's nicely summed this up in his post, and after sone predictable and shite attempts at kicking things off again
I think Merlin managed to actualy sneak a genuinely funny jibe in there! :lol:As for TV's, I'm not sure if this is the case anyMOre, but I'm sure Toshiba were regarded as being class leaders as they were the only ones offering component connections at reasonable cost.
I am of course just a brat and read this in a magazine :MILD:
Originally posted by MO!
after sone predictable and shite attempts at kicking things off again
MO,
I don't need to attempt anything. If I wanted it to "kick off" in your terminology, I could do so with ease.
If you have a problem with my posts, PM me, or better still drop up to Buckinghamshire and speak to my face.
sideshowbob
Trisha
Talk to the hand...
-- Ian
-- Ian
