Phono stage
- Thread starter anon_bb
- Start date
Dynamic Turtle
The Bydo Destroyer
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 935
- Reaction score
- 0
BBV, I distinctly recall seeing a Dyna PP20 (or whatever it's called - their top £2k PS) going ex-dem somewhere for a song. Will let you know if I stumble across it again....
sideshowbob
Trisha
brizonbiovizier said:
Is there a date for that yet?
The other thing to try is something with tubes in it. Often people express some vague dissatisfaction with some aspect of their system and find that what they wanted all along was toobs, even if they originally thought they didn't.
-- Ian
Well Robs tube based phono had cracking bass - but the Borbely was streets ahead everywhere else. The two combined would have been awesome.
There isnt a date yet - the thread was closed due to hijacking. I will open a new thread when I get back from Shanghai.
There isnt a date yet - the thread was closed due to hijacking. I will open a new thread when I get back from Shanghai.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
- Messages
- 418
- Reaction score
- 0
BBV,
Regardless of which phono stage you choose (or have chosen) how have you arrived at the EMT/S&B step up combination?
I've listened to EMT's in several different systems and while I quite like the solidity of their presentation, tonally I always felt they were a bit uneven particularly above 2-3K.
In what set up did you hear those items working satisfactorily and how have you subsequently arrived at a correct 2ndary load for the transformer?
Regardless of which phono stage you choose (or have chosen) how have you arrived at the EMT/S&B step up combination?
I've listened to EMT's in several different systems and while I quite like the solidity of their presentation, tonally I always felt they were a bit uneven particularly above 2-3K.
In what set up did you hear those items working satisfactorily and how have you subsequently arrived at a correct 2ndary load for the transformer?
Hi,
I derived by experimentation with resistor values from 5k to 50k. Settling on 8.25k. The stepups are the most recent addition and were an all around improvement though I still need to dial in the cap loading. The bass is the only problem.
EMTs do need cap loading - the old shiraz actually had caps attached to the side of the cartridge! About 330pf (plus cables) is sufficient and thats what I was using with 600 ohm loading before the stepups. A different value will be required with the stepups. Without that they emphasise the extreme treble and dip the mid, as expected if cap loading is required for level frequency response.
TBH the only problem with the Borbely is the bass. The stepups did improve it a bit but not enough. I am disabling the dc servos to see if that is the cause of the problem. The bass was great with Robs WAD phono so it does seem to pin the blame on the phono stage (however the WAD didnt do a great job on the mid and treble).
Nick.
I derived by experimentation with resistor values from 5k to 50k. Settling on 8.25k. The stepups are the most recent addition and were an all around improvement though I still need to dial in the cap loading. The bass is the only problem.
EMTs do need cap loading - the old shiraz actually had caps attached to the side of the cartridge! About 330pf (plus cables) is sufficient and thats what I was using with 600 ohm loading before the stepups. A different value will be required with the stepups. Without that they emphasise the extreme treble and dip the mid, as expected if cap loading is required for level frequency response.
TBH the only problem with the Borbely is the bass. The stepups did improve it a bit but not enough. I am disabling the dc servos to see if that is the cause of the problem. The bass was great with Robs WAD phono so it does seem to pin the blame on the phono stage (however the WAD didnt do a great job on the mid and treble).
Nick.
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
what more expensive valve phono stages have you tried at home BBV?
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
- Messages
- 418
- Reaction score
- 0
Hi,
I have seen pics of the Shiraz with attached surface mount type caps. The EMT's I've listened to have usually been the model with the white plate through which the stylus emerges with various loading configurations. I don't know how different this model is to the current Brinkmann cartridge.
I use an Audionote Io with the japanese ANS6 transformers loading it.
I'm not actually familiar with the Borbely although I have heard the name elsewhere. Is there a particular website with details I should look at to get some more info about it?
I have various phono stages although my favourite is a very heavily modified Audio Innovations P2.
Presumably the bass issue isn't just to do with the load presented by your tvc. Whats the o/p impedance of the Borbely?
I have seen pics of the Shiraz with attached surface mount type caps. The EMT's I've listened to have usually been the model with the white plate through which the stylus emerges with various loading configurations. I don't know how different this model is to the current Brinkmann cartridge.
I use an Audionote Io with the japanese ANS6 transformers loading it.
I'm not actually familiar with the Borbely although I have heard the name elsewhere. Is there a particular website with details I should look at to get some more info about it?
I have various phono stages although my favourite is a very heavily modified Audio Innovations P2.
Presumably the bass issue isn't just to do with the load presented by your tvc. Whats the o/p impedance of the Borbely?
SCIDB
Moderator
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 2,501
- Reaction score
- 2
Hi,
Borbely site is here.
http://www.borbelyaudio.com/products.asp
Hi BBv,
There is a Audio Innovation P2 for sale at Definitive Audio.
SCIDB
Borbely site is here.
http://www.borbelyaudio.com/products.asp
Hi BBv,
There is a Audio Innovation P2 for sale at Definitive Audio.
SCIDB
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
- Messages
- 418
- Reaction score
- 0
BBV,
presumably you've asked Borbely why they think the LF performance of the phono stage might not be as good as you think it should be. What did they say?
presumably you've asked Borbely why they think the LF performance of the phono stage might not be as good as you think it should be. What did they say?
I havent tried any other valve phonos in my home system.
The brinkmann emt has the stylus and motor assembly replaced by VDH - then brinkmann does a rebuild himself.
The borbely bass was the same even into Robs active pre - I havent get the o/p impedance to hand but I did check with Thorsten and it was ok by some margin. I have the Borbely 420 - which is not on the website but half way between the two designs that are there.
The brinkmann emt has the stylus and motor assembly replaced by VDH - then brinkmann does a rebuild himself.
The borbely bass was the same even into Robs active pre - I havent get the o/p impedance to hand but I did check with Thorsten and it was ok by some margin. I have the Borbely 420 - which is not on the website but half way between the two designs that are there.
He seemed to think there wasnt a problem. But then he also said the stepup wouldnt help or improve the overall sound, yet it did both. It was only really noticeable on rock and raggae with very deep taut and well defined bass. Somehting he doesnt listen to - and I doubt any port loaded speaker would have resolved the difference anyway.
RobHolt
Moderator
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2004
- Messages
- 4,126
- Reaction score
- 12
brizonbiovizier said:
IIRC you thought the Borbely was a bit cleaner and more open up top.
My phono cannot drive the S&B without some modification and was playing through the WAD pre. Now, the spec says to use a zobel on the output TXs to prevent the sort of ringing we saw recently with the TVC. I never used the zobel on the circuit but have now added it, and the top is certainly a little sweeter. The Phono also now has a rebuilt and uprated PSU so you should definitely hear it again. The circuit is dead simple and you could scratch build it for a couple of hundred quid.
PS: There are hundreds of subtly different ECC83s on the market from current production to NOS so you can tune it to your hearts content
BBV I surely don't have the experience in phono stages of many of you here... however I have heard a few very expensive stages over the years (sadly not on my rig as I wouldnt be able to afford them).
I am not sure if you would like a more valve sound (without being extremely so) but if you can cope with that I heard some nice sounds from Audio Research's stage.
For transistors I really liked the Krell Reference phonostage when I heard it. However this only works well with the dedicated PSU and that hikes its price considerably.
Just some thoughts, hope it helps.
Jack
I am not sure if you would like a more valve sound (without being extremely so) but if you can cope with that I heard some nice sounds from Audio Research's stage.
For transistors I really liked the Krell Reference phonostage when I heard it. However this only works well with the dedicated PSU and that hikes its price considerably.
Just some thoughts, hope it helps.
Jack
Ok I will look forward to it - I thought the BA was much more vivid and life like and detailed in the mid and treble. But the bass was naff. The stepup has improved everything all around - the treble and mid are even better and the bass is improved but I still dont think it will match the WAD. I have just disabled the dc servos and about to attach the dc blocking caps so I will update when I have heard the results...
Last edited by a moderator:
