pre amp

I wouldn't say "detrimental" Tone, rather a lack of balls, slam, emotion, some shortfall in three dimensionality perhaps, whereas "detrimental" infers a type of harm. Having tried a couple of passive pre's (including valves) myself I still much prefer a solid state active pre by a country mile. IMHO and YMMV of course

 

what about an old audiolab 8000Q preamp.. fantastically transparent amp, used a really good ALPS volume pot and some very heavy duty switching.

One of the nicest preamps ive ever owned and can be picked up very cheaply.

 

...which just goes to show that there's a good deal of subjectivity involved and you're better off having a good listen before you buy. I'm running a Glasshouse TVC (£450 built and tested) / WAD6550 combination and I think it sounds fabulous - the only real downside is whether or not you find the stepped volume control acceptable.

 

Larkrise said "Actives add stuff - but sometimes what they add is rather pleasant".

Yes I agree fully. I've just been listening to a system with a very good front end (SME 10 for Vinyl and DPA 1024 for CD), and with the same speakers as mine (ESL63/SW63), but with a bespoke active (ss) pre rather than a TVC. It did sound "pleasant", and, maybe, fuller in tone, but to my ears it also sounded muffled. I was not hearing detail which I hear on a TVC. I'm NOT saying the presentation was worse, just that I like the sound of a TVC better, but the other guy prefers his system- each to his own! I also admit that with a good TVC I'm hearing problems with recordings that I had not noticed with a ladder resistor, but good recordings are sublime!

Of course just as there is quite a variety in passives, there is also an even wider variety in actives and I'm sure that somewhere there is something I would like better (if I could afford it)- I just don't feel the need to go looking for it.

 

what is stepped volume control then?

 

How about a volume control that goes in steps or how about searching here or using Google.

 

in highly resolving systems it is easy to hear not only coloration (as a form of say pleasant distortion) but also nasty things coming from the active preamps. for example with every active preamp i tested in last 12 months i could hear very bad effects from dirty mains especially during the daytime when neighbours have all the kitchen devices switched on. some of the actives i experienced this were very decent ones such as mentioned EAR 864 and pass labs X2.5 (i will not mention lesser players from cary, krell and electrocompaniet).

having this in mind i find the idea of having a highly important component detached from the mains really great and that's where my quest for a truly good passive preamp has started from.

my feelings - based on rather obsessive testing of say more than 10 active and 7 passive (all TVC) preamps in last 7-8 months is that it is certain that TVCs have lower colorations than any active i tried. so called "emotions", "bloom" or whatever we get attraced with in case of actives is just another form of distortion but it is of course (and i am not an exception) understandable why people like them. i am also sometimes tired of being - as someone today mentioned, i think i got a favourite phrase - in audio forensic moods.

what i am pretty sure is that the world of TVCs is the most unexplored area of audio. it was S&B that dominated the market with their rather 1-dimensional view on what and how TVC should sound. unfortunately i found their products not fully representative of the potential TVCs have. for different reasons - mostly mass production related - they opted for relatively inferior geometry of their cores, playing on a card of succesful material they are made of. the result is - if i can talk in numbers - say 75% of what truly properly designed and wound TVCs can deliver. there is no doubts that mass production of such TVCs is probably not possible, at least in the west, with a precise handwork and rare parts needed (for example good cores of advanced geometry and matured materials that sound the best a few decades after the production).
but whoever is really into it, i think there are possibilites to get some serious stuff...

 

it's nice to see a reasonable priced TVC after all that music first insanity. there is absolutely nothing in this kind of device that should cost more than what glasshouse TVC costs. all i can assume is that the music first prices are rather an attempt to capitalize on the reviews of their preamp. i doubt they have anything to do with the production costs of the unit.

 

I actually challenged them on this - went to visit Music First last year when visitng friends in Hastings, and the reply was quality of build and the usual ongoing costs of distribution etc. I do think they have something special though just as David Heaton of Audio Synthesis has/had with his passives as they really are unlike anything you'd cobble together yourself - trust me!

 

Frank, deterimental is a word I would use to discribe passive pre's, no matter how well made/ how exotic the parts used, the principle is great, the implimenation is flawed. verbaitum

 

I agree that the Music First is horribly expensive; I also think it is very good. Contrary to the view expressed in an earlier post on this thread, I prefer it to the Promitheus (dual mono ref 4, latest TVCs), but that could be a difference in taste or system match. However, the Promitheus offers MUCH better value and if you actually prefer it it's a no brainer!

It hard to see why there is such a difference in price even allowing for manufacture in the UK vs Malaysia. I suspect a major factor is their decision to sell through retailers- most of the competition sell as kits or direct. If you like the S&B T/X, I think it is now only available in the Music First.

At the risk of further Hi-jacking the thread, has anyone heard the "silk" T/Xs made by SAC and now offered in the Django?

 

i have never compared music first to promitheus. last week i had neck to neck promitheus ref 4 (not dual mono) vs bent 102 and promi is a clear winner on everything, from transparency to clarity. on the other hand i've heard a DIY TVC assembled from the similar trannies and elna volume switches like music first (just sourced through bent before the current crisis), only with a better (relay based) selector, and it killed the same promitheus on everything, just that it had that typically analytical (not to say - forensic) high end flavour to the sound i usually can't stand. maybe my thoughts would be highly favourable if i didn't test it on the same day against the DIY TVC with hand-wound double-C core trannies that sounded so bloody real, dynamic and fast that it was truly shocking.

 

I see Promitheus are also now doing an active valve pre with a TVC ...

 

i am not crazy about the idea. not surprised that the reactions are actually lukewarm.

i would always prefer to have a valve active with transformers in output stage just as audio note, shindo, EAR, macintosh and others do.

in any case TVC with an active tube buffer is not a TVC anymore.

 

I recently built the new WD pre3 active valve preamp with HUGE output tranformers, and also own the glasshouse tvc. I still haven't got round to doing proper back to back comparisons, but by memory, they sound more alike than I expected.... maybe its the output transformers/tvc "sound". The WD pre3 does seem to make music more exciting and punchy, the tvc being more.... cerebral i'd guess is the word.

Both are very good preamps, but i'd guess the WD one would be more "universal", being easier to fit into a wider range of systems. The absolute silence and lack of mains "hash" from the tvc might give it the edge in detail and "purity", but the active fights back with the feeling that music has more power and dynamics.

The stepped volume of the tvc could get annoying when I wanted to listen at very low volume levels.... there never seemed to be a "just right" click.

The WD pre3 still only has a few hours on it so far, and there is a large list of tweaks/upgrades possible, and I havent even bothered trying to sort out the minor "clicks n pops" it seems to pick up from the mains yet. Might just need moving an inch or two away from the outboard psu, we'll see. It's still early days, but it's definately a keeper.... and so is the glasshouse tvc. A man can never have too many preamps, can he?

Edit to add: Both are better than either a pot-in-a-box passive, or even my (now replaced by WD phono3) EAR 834p direct into my amp. The Ear had a dact pot fitted so could be used straight into my amp- a Glasshouse 300b SET kit. Adding firstly the tvc, then lately the WD pre3 have both given more drive, scale and that feeling of power that the Ear phono on it's own lacked. Both the tvc and the pre3 made my system sound like it had gained a few more muscles, but also more control and finesse.

 

Uncle Ants had a TVC ....it was very good and very bad all rolled into one...

in that it did somethings that were fantastic and some that made your toes curl....but in the system I heard it was for me just not right....

thats not to say tvc's are wrong just system dependent....though I suspect its down to personal taste...

 

Anubisgrau said "i have never compared music first to promitheus. last week i had neck to neck promitheus ref 4 (not dual mono) vs bent 102"

Yes, I'm sorry, I had misremembered- presumably because I was focused on the T/X itself. I've been wondering how the Music First and Bent compare. I don't know about the 102, but the Flex, which I was considering, has the T/Xs in a different orientation to the MFirst (no idea whether that makes a difference) and, I was told, although both companies use the S&B 102 T/X, they use different sources of wire for the windings- at least in the MkIII version. (That surpised me, but John Chapman told me himself)

 

Tvc

Hi am following this thread with interest as I am keen to try a valve pre, did have the Glasshouse TVC for a week to go with my Glasshouse 300b. It was very good detailed etc. But ultimately didn't have the drive I'm looking for.

I noticed that Promitheus now have a valve buffered TVC the Apollo
and was wondering if any one had heard this looks like it could be just what I'm looking for.

philip

 

Eyup, yes it sounded very detailed, very there, big soundstage and bright enough to vibrate your fillings. Whereas the pre amp side of the Densen (effectively a pot in a box) was almost as good in most of these departments but definitely a lot smoother and nowhere near as bright. Could be the TVC was just to honest and showing everything else up and the pot is masking it.

 

Hi Philip

In that case, my recc would be the Diyhifisupply Basie +/Aikido. I have the plain jane Basie, and (apart from background noise which has been eliminated in the new one) it really is awesome. I've taken it to better levels with top components.

You can get a Basie + Aikido built up for about £600 plus import and shipping, and frankly ''that's what I'd buy'' - even if I had a couple of grand to throw at it.