RA - interesting change of tack?

[analoguekid]

Hex and 7V have made the most sense i have ever heard of "the cable debate" well done guys.

I don't see what the problem is I spent the money on my cables because I liked what they did, I couldn't have done the same myself, so to get them I had to pay the price the manufacturer was asking, notice I say asking, they don't hold a gun to your head, If you beleive in Cables make a difference, then fine , if you don't then fine also, its what makes this hobby such a melting pot, different ideas and ways of doing things to arrive at asimilar goal.

I sell medicine to Doctors, sometimes with medicine drugs have an effect that can be explained by science others they can't, now I know that the effect can be measured but that doesn't explain exactly how it works as sometimes the results do not corelate with the Pharmacokinetics (how drugs work in the body and how they are broken down) One of the best selling drugs for lowering cholesterol claim that there is an element of stabilising fatty plaque (this can break off and cause a blockage in a blood vesel causing a heart attack or stroke) but they are not sure exactly how this works as non of the other drugs in the same class has this effect, my point is maybe we haven't discovered the physical reason for cable differences we are only measuring impedence etc maybe there is some parameter about electrical physics that no one has discovered yet.

After all viagra started out as a medicine to lower blood pressure (and by all accounts pretty inefectual it was too, however they discovered it had an interesting side effect, now they are sure of how it works in men, and that it shoudn't work in women, but some woman claim it does, is this aalso a psychological effect.

Another possibility from those sceptics glass half empty kind of people that can't/won't hear any difference in a cable?tweaks etc, could it be sour grapes, they may be the type of person who is unwilling to spend so much of their hard earned on what is afterall abit of wire or a block of wood, so they don't feel left out in what is sometimes an effect of the selfish gene namely we all want what is best and it's even better if it's better than the other guys (same goes for cars), so they pour scorn on other people who do.

Its a big mad world with loads of possibilities we should be congratulating others everytime they take the next step to along their pathway to audio nirvana, there is already enough of that from all the HiFi NON believers out there.

IMHO

P

ps great thread

 

[wadia-miester]

Maybe a glimmer of hope in the void at last, however they're biggest gun hasn't been rolled out yet he's signed up, but not posted yet, he makes datty/peteH/woofie/not a clue all look like basic first year grade physics students, I'm sure our leader has a poster of his elusive form of his wall
At least a few have resisted the dark side, the urge is strong, the suggestion is powerful.
But hey its only rock and roll..........

 

[michaelab]

Great post Hex, as the others said - good points and well made.
If people feel they are getting value for money from a £2K cable then that's entirely up to them. No one is forced to buy expensive tweaks.

analoguekid - I'm sure that there are some cable sceptics for whom it is a matter of "sour grapes" or "can't afford it so I'll convince myself it's all bollox anyway". However many (probably most) are not like that. Without wanting to be unmodest, I have had (paid for) expensive cables and I could easily afford more expensive ones. I've since sold most of them not because I needed the money but because I genuinely don't believe they made an audible difference. I won't respond to your other points as we've been there and back many times before and the same old arguments will just be wheeled out again. What I don't understand is why there has to be animosity over the subject. Some people believe they make a difference others don't - so what? All the other hifi argument standards (analogue vs. digital, valves vs. solid state, etc) never generate even half the amount of anger that this one does

Tone - turn your head to one side, you might see the chip on your shoulder . I have no idea who you might be referring to with "their biggest gun". If he's not posting then it's irrelevant whether he's here or not really. There is no "dark side" here, we're all into hifi and getting the best out of it, we just have different views on how that can be done. If we all had the same views then it would be a pretty boring place here and hifi a pretty boring hobby.

Why can't we just respect each others views for God's sake?

Michael.

 

[wadia-miester]

Mike,
I'm afriad Merlin was correct, you Humour glands were surgicaly removed at birth

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Mike,
I'm afriad Merlin was correct, you Humour glands were surgicaly removed at birth

Humour is always at someone's expense. When it was at yours recently, I seem to remember a similar sense of humour failure

I'm just getting tired of the same old childish snide remarks - and I'm not the only one.

Michael.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by michaelab


Why can't we just respect each others views for God's sake?

Michael.

Michael,

If your view is that YOU cannot hear the differenbces between cables, then I fully respect that observation.

If you view is that there are no differences between cables (etc.etc.etc) then how can you expect people who disagree to respect that?

Anyway, like you say, we've been here too often and it's good to see less agravation currently.

I am constantly amazed by posts like

Love to know the profit margins on supposedly 'respected' equipment makers.

Everything costs obcene amounts of money in this country, so why single out hifi? If you din't get paid as much for doing your own job, the kit wqould no doubt be considerably less expensive. But remember, high earnings, mean high overheads, which mean high prices.

 

[wadia-miester]

So how do think quite a few of the regulars feel about posting on such issues?, wondering whether they'll get a wall of your all hearing things posts? everytime. I feel maybe Rejoyce hit the nail on the head a few days back with this post
"I think everyone is bored with the ... I can hear a difference no you can't you are imagining it yes I can you must be deaf no you are deaf and deluded ... type arguements."
It works both ways Mike. Besides childish humour can be quite amusing, if done right

 

[lowrider]

HEX you'r the man... :boogie:

 

[analoguekid]

Originally posted by michaelab
Great post Hex, as the others said - good points and well

analoguekid - I'm sure that there are some cable sceptics for whom it is a matter of "sour grapes" or "can't afford it so I'll convince myself it's all bollox anyway". However many (probably most) are not like that. Without wanting to be unmodest, I have had (paid for) expensive cables and I could easily afford more expensive ones. I've since sold most of them not because I needed the money but because I genuinely don't believe they made an audible difference. I won't respond to your other points as we've been there and back many times before and the same old arguments will just be wheeled out again. What I don't understand is why there has to be animosity over the subject. Some people believe they make a difference others don't - so what? All the other hifi argument standards (analogue vs. digital, valves vs. solid state, etc) never generate even half the amount of anger that this one does



Michael.

Michael I too am surprised at the animosity, live and let live I say, not really serious regarding "sour grapes" statement, meant to provoke reaction from the auditory digital sceptics who seem to be the ones whose comments carry the most animosity as we don't agree with them, (so what why should they care) and I don't mean you good self and other balanced individuals whose posts to me seem fair and unbiased and entirely how you see it, but there are some, on this forum and others who take pride in pouring scorn and derision on those of us who do by spouting technical facts and figures in a way to try and ridicule the "believers", at the end of the day you pays your money (or not ) and you makes a choice

 

[leonard smalls]

Tell you one thing, all this whingeing about whether cables make a difference or not means absolutely nowt to your average bloke in the street - sit them down in front of £100k worth of hifi, they'll say "wow" and happily go back to their Matsui not missing the difference, and wondering what all the fuss was about!
If audiophiles spend all their time worrying about whether they should spend £2k on a mains cable then argueing about it they're missing the real argument in hifi:
WHY DON'T SPEAKERS DO BASS ANY MORE?
:JPS:

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by leonard smalls

WHY DON'T SPEAKERS DO BASS ANY MORE?
:JPS:

Mine do

Wanna buy'em - going cheap 'cos the neighbour's bigger than me

Sad thing is, many people don't remember what bass is supposed to sound like, else how the f*ck would some of todays speaker manufacturers exist?

 

[analoguekid]

Originally posted by leonard smalls

WHY DON'T SPEAKERS DO BASS ANY MORE?
:JPS:

I feel another thread coming?:MILD:

 

[joel]

Originally posted by analoguekid
not really serious regarding "sour grapes" statement, meant to provoke reaction from the auditory digital sceptics who seem to be the ones whose comments carry the most animosity

I don't follow these arguments very closely for the most part. It's YOUR money, after all. However, I would say that the outrage has mostly come from the so-called believers who seem to object to their fondly held beliefs being questioned. This is quite understandable, and we all hold dear certain ideas that we do not like to see challenged.
Ultimately, what this leads to is a "dialogue of the deaf", which actually means that neither side is capable of putting an argument in terms the other side can accept or understand.
I have no problem with the believers putting their side of the case, I think they're deluding themselves to some extent (and vice-versa), but that is just my opinion. However, I should also be able to put mine, should I so wish, even if my position upsets some people.
If, as is often said on here, there is more than one reality, then my version is as legitimate as anyone's and I should be able to say what I think here.
Those who want a "believers only" forum should go out and make one themselves. It's not expensive and it's not hard to do...
IMHO, saying that Michael has lost his sense of humour really smacks of frustation.

 

[merlin]

Joel,

there really wouldn't be a problem if when some of us describe hearing improvements when changing cables, supports, filters etc, others keep their responses to stating that they had not heard a difference. So I say I did, you say you didn't.

That seems perfectly fair.

It's when someone tries to infer that people imaigne things and like wise when others reply by suggesting somone is deaf, that the confrontation starts.

So you don't hear anything, I do. Nothing more to say really unless someone is looking for an arguement.

 

[joel]

Merlin,
That is a reasonable position, although it does seem to make discussion difficult. Perhaps that is the price we have to pay, since, as I said before, neither side seems capable of formulating arguments in terms the other can understand or accept.

 

[PeteH]

Originally posted by Hex Spurt
On the one hand a bunch of you dismiss the idea that better cables can make a difference, yet we all spend hours discussing the minute differences that this years XYZ amp has over the last model because the manufacturer changed some capacitors. Really, where's the difference?

Tiny, slightly anal point of fact: as well as the cables thing, some of us also believe that this year's amp is nearly identical to last year's model because all the manufacturer did is change some capacitors.

But I do agree with you over the profit-margin-bashing issues, although - obviously at the ZG administration's discretion - if someone happens to think that product X is overpriced tat then I don't see a problem with him saying that.

 

[penance]

So now capacitors dont make any sonic difference either?

oh dear.

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
So how do think quite a few of the regulars feel about posting on such issues?, wondering whether they'll get a wall of your all hearing things posts? everytime.

Since the big cable debacle a few weeks ago (shortly after I came out as a sceptic) there hasn't been a single post by the sceptics of the type you're referring to, much less a wall. IMO the sceptics have been remarkably restrained of late.

joel - two excellent posts.

If, as is often said on here, there is more than one reality, then my version is as legitimate as anyone's and I should be able to say what I think here.
Those who want a "believers only" forum should go out and make one themselves. It's not expensive and it's not hard to do...

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Michael.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by joel
Merlin,
That is a reasonable position, although it does seem to make discussion difficult. Perhaps that is the price we have to pay, since, as I said before, neither side seems capable of formulating arguments in terms the other can understand or accept.

Joel, I really don't understand why anyone would want to enter into discussions regarding items they do not beleive in unless with a view to stirring up a hornets nest.

So I would agree with you that debating the main question of whether cables make a difference is unlikely to lead to harmonious exchanges.

On the other hand, it would seem unnesseccary for a sceptic to enter a discussion regarding say Siltech cables, when they simply do not beleive in the subject matter, unless of course they have direct experience of the product in question.

That seems reasonable

 

[Lawrie]

Originally posted by joel
However, I would say that the outrage has mostly come from the so-called believers who seem to object to their fondly held beliefs being questioned. This is quite understandable, and we all hold dear certain ideas that we do not like to see challenged.

The question here is whether these so called cable believers are objecting because they do believe that cables make a difference or whether they are objecting because they have a vested interest (perhaps financially) in the cable business and too many objections might ruin a good thing? FWIW, I do believe that there are differences between cables, albeit very marginal and not worth the over-inflated prices, but it does not upset me one bit that others say there are no differences.

Now good 'ole Tones says he cannot hear a difference between his LP12 TT and his Linn & Meridian CDPs. I would like to think that there was a difference in the presentation of all those components but am I bothered that Tone's can't hear a difference? No, but if I had a vested interest in selling those products to audiophiles, then I would be bothered and perhaps tried to show Tone's the error of his ways erm..., I meant to say 'errors of his hearing' even though there might be nothing wrong with the man's hearing. See what I'm getting at?

I do agree though that if people have an issue with the objections or scepticism of cables by others on this forum, then they should create their own DBT free specialised cables forum (such as the likes of the Mana Forum for racks) where believers and other interested parties could converse with minimum objection and where those who disbelieve or object would be shot down or banned without warning. Just a thought chaps.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.