Religion Debate

My "credentials" as such are that I work as a physician. I am fortunate enough to be reasonably intelligent, and received a first-rate education in a private school, followed by a leading London medical school (Guy's). I have a keen interest in all branches of science, but particularly in the biological sciences.

You need to do some serious reading.

 

P.S

A little light googling reveals this:

The Creationist argument combines errors in understanding the theory of evolution, and errors in simple biological facts.

Their theoretical failure involves overlooking the fact that evolution occurs in small stages, each selected for the benefit of the organism.

It is perfectly true that the neck of the giraffe would be fatal if the giraffe had a small heart, or that the blood pressure produced by the heart of the giraffe would be fatal if the giraffe had thin arteries. However, evolutionary theory does not say that evolution does its work first on one feature of an animal, and then on another: it says the very opposite. Obviously random mutations do not form an orderly queue, with those extending the length of the neck going first, those increasing the blood pressure going second, and so forth. Instead, a slightly longer neck gives a selective advantage to a slightly stronger heart, which gives a selective advantage to slightly thicker arteries. So long as there is environmental pressure for slightly longer necks, there is also a selective pressure for these coadaptations, and mutations for them will be favored. It is rather depressing to think that nearly 150 years ago, Darwin gave the same answer to the same grotesque misunderstanding of his theory concerning the same animal, and that it is necessary to repeat it:

With animals such as the giraffe, of which the whole structure is admirably co-ordinated for certain purposes, it has been supposed that all the parts must have been simultaneously modified; and it has been argued that, on the principle of natural selection, this is scarcely possible. But in thus arguing, it has been tacitly assumed that the variations must have been abrupt and great.

With this theoretical error, the Creationists compound a crass factual error: supposing that the particular features named are unique to the giraffe. Not one of them is.

* The giraffe has elasticated arteries? So do you, I trust. Hardening of the arteries is an undesirable medical condition: all arteries are by nature elastic.

* The giraffe’s cerebrospinal fluid produces a counter-pressure to prevent rupture or capillary leakage? This again is true of all mammals, and is a matter not of design nor of evolution, but basic physics.

* The giraffe has valves in the veins of its neck? So do all mammals. You too have a jugular valve.
* Giraffes have pressure sensors in their neck arteries? Again, so do all mammals.
* The giraffe has a rete mirable? So do most of its relatives:

The function of the rete mirabile is to regulate the flow of arterial blood towards the cerebrum as well as the thermal regulation of the brain preventing it from overheating; the arterial system of the cerebrum in ruminants is equipped with a safety system.

* The giraffe has a shunt between the carotid and vertebral arteries? So do many of its relatives, including its closest relative, the okapi, which has a short neck.

In summary, the mechanisms which the giraffe uses to control its blood pressure are all either common to mammals in general, or common to the species most closely related to the giraffe.


Fossil record:

Holocene Giraffa camelopardalis (the modern giraffe), Okapia johnstoni (the modern okapi)

Pleistocene Giraffa camelopardalis, Giraffa jumae, Giraffa gracilis, Giraffa sivalensis, Okapia stillei, Sivatherium giganteum, Sivatherium maurusium

Pliocene Giraffa attica, Giraffa punjabiensis, Giraffa priscilla, Samotherium boissieri, Samotherium sp. , Honanotherium sp. , Samotherium mongoliensis, Helladotherium sp. , Bramatherium perimense

Upper Miocene Samotherium africanum, Samotherium sp., Palaeotragus germaini, Honanotherium sp. , Honanotherium schlosseri, Honanotherium sivalense, Birgerbohlina schaubi, Giraffokeryx punjabiensis, Bramatherium megacephalum, Shansitherium fuguensis, Shansitherium tateli, Palaeotragus primaevus, Progiraffa exigua

Middle Miocene Palaeotragus primaevus, Giraffokeryx sp., Giraffokeryx tungurensis, Giraffokeryx punjabiensis

Lower Miocene Prolibytherium magnieri, Climacoceras africanus, Climacoceras gentryi, Canthumeryx sertensis
Oligocene Eumeryx sp.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081015144123.htm

Sorry.

It is patently absurd to think that the fossil record will ever be "complete". Very few corpses fossilise. Odd that Genesis fails to mention god's dinosaur experiment. Perhaps this is because fossils were not discovered by mankind until the 19th century!

 

marry xmas folks...

 

Happy Solstice mr cat.

 

It'll be a shotgun wedding...

Tony.

 

Dinosaurs

There is no issue with these animals. They co-existed with man.

The term Dinosaur or terrible lizard is an early Victorian Term and would obviously not be mentioned in the Old Covenant. However large animals are mentioned and some of these descriptions are very similar to what we would call dinosaurs. I can quote scripture but had wanted to refrain from doing so.

I am clad that you have revealed who you are and your background, a lot of things now make sense. I think from now on I will address those questions that you have previously asked and direct you to your peers who are of faith who will give you the kind of meat you need to offer quality discussions at a scientific level. Such people do exist I offer a list of such historical figures, founders of their paticular fields or who pushed the boundaries of such.

Kepler, Pascal, Boyle, Newton, Steno, Faraday, Babbage, Agassiz, Simpson, Mendel, Pasteur, Kelvin, Lister, Maxwell , Ramsay and many others. Being a scientist, Doctor etc need not preclude you having faith in Yahweh.

You have also made reference to not understanding current scientific theories I do but choose not to believe them. I understand the how Evolution is supposed to work but the main issue with that is believing in an ancient Earth as opposed to a young one. You also say that such changes are selected to the organisms benefit. Selected by who ? Is Evolution a deity. Or are you perhaps suggesting that Yahweh created via Evolution. Something I do not believe.

D Louth 77

 

You've made me laugh again. A career in stand-up, perhaps? You patently don't understand evolutionary theory - you appear to think that giraffes grew their long necks overnight, and talk about "random chance". There's nothing random about Natural Selection.

Being a doctor has precisely nothing to do with my atheism. You are an atheist too - with respect to all the other deities who have come and gone in mankind's history. Yahweh is no different, in my opinion, and no more worthy of our worship. History shows that man creates god(s) in his own image.

Solved the omniscient thing yet?

 

The universe and space are not the same thing. The universe exists within space but is infinitely smaller though expanding due to the original explosion of a point source within space. Space is all, the universe is not. Time started with the original explosion not space. One cannot escape the universe due to the gravitational force of all of its mass. One would simply prescribe a curve through space... the space within the universe. Eventually, one would end up back at one's starting point. Therefore one cannot leave the universe to travel through space beyond as one cannot escape the gravitaional force of the whole universe. The universe is tiny when compared to the surrounding space, it's rather like a Helium balloon floating within a room. The room is space and the balloon is the universe. I doubt there will ever be a place for a God within Physics.

 

The Answer

The quality you ask about is the uniques of Yahwehs totally perfect knowledge or omniscience. His knowledge is complete and contains everything. He knows and has always known everything. He is infinitely above his creation. In your question you seek to put His knowledge on a similar level to yours as well as your understanding. You see contradiction and powerlessness and yet none exists. It is a deeply concerning thing to even for one moment contemplate that He knows you and me intimately, our every strength and weakness. The unchangeableness of Him is linked to His Eternity but they are not identical. He will exist for ever and has done so and nothing came before him or after him. His immutability means that He is al lways the same in his eternal being. He is perfection.

His plans are also immutable. He lacks neither the knowledge or the power to do as he wants. You think there is contradiction in what and how He does it but there is not. He has given us the freedom of choice/will to accept his love or reject it and while he does involve himself in Earths affairs they are in accordance with his plan for history. Most of what is wrong with our world is down to us and not His actions or lack of them and at this stage I must add the plans and deceit of the devil. Someone who wants nothing more than our total destruction and to halt Yahwehs plans ( something he can't do ) Would you really want Him to interfere in everything. He does not want that, but wants us to come into a relationship with him because we want to. There would be no point in making us blind obedient slaves, which he could do if he wanted.

Trying to imagine the level of His perfect will, in all the detail of history is impossible. For us to try is to put Him in a box of our own limitations. The patterns are there to see and the goals clear but the timing is not, at least in terms of the end.

I am certainly not an atheist and I do not for one minute accept that Yahweh has been created by us in our image, rather we in his. Like him we our creators and are a triune being with a Body, mind and Soul but are finite.

Now the most controversial bit. All the deities in the past and future are as you say a product of mans own imagination, but some are a product of the evil one's, in order to pull mankind away from the truth of Yahweh. To confuse and destroy, to blind and corrupt.

As Yahweh invented Physics the laws of his creation I think it is we who have forced him out. There is a place for him as I listed a number of well respected scientist who were believers. The Universe and Space are limited and not infinite. Only Yahweh is infinite and unlimited.

D Louth 77

 

There is no evidence for a God. As a result of that there can be no proof either. We are surrounded by evidence for evolution. Everyday we observe as scientists we see evidence of evolution but no evidence for any kind of God. The more we learn and eventually understand about the universe and therefore physics the more we find there is no place for any kind of God. The bible or any other religious text proves absolutely nothing. They are merely fictional works showing that we have a rather overblown imagination and a need to look for forgiveness which in turn displays a rather overblown guilt complex. A spell with the military may well change that viewpoint.

 

Let's pretend there's a bus full of nuns & kittens heading for a weak bridge. If god does nothing, the nuns & kittens will die. He knows this in advance. So he decides to strengthen the bridge in order to save all the nuns & kittens. When the time comes, he's powerless to not save the nuns & kittens (he finds out that one of the nuns had been masturbating the night before, using her "free will"). Therefore he's not omnipotent.

One Million Years BC was in many ways a great film, but not strictly accurate, you know.

 

I guess if you are gullible enough to believe in the Devil then you have a need to believe in God. I personally believe in my own strengths and choose to minimise the weaknesses. I am not gullible and I do not have a massive guilty conscience.

 

He does not interfere.

Not interfering is not the same as not being able to interfere. This is the most difficult thing to talk about. I have experience of this in regard to my Mum who died from Leukemia 3 years ago. Why did Yahweh not heal her ? Why does he heal others both through medicine ( your work ) and supernaturally ? I don't know. Maybe it is just some peoples time to go and not others. I know of people who have been healed including me. I just don't know why.

His plans are his and that is that.

Please refrain from being smutty in this conversation or I will stop now. There is no need for it and it is not appropriate.

Hi Haselsh1 I am not gullible, but rather a perfectly sane person who has examined all the evidence and reached the conclusion that Yahweh does exist and that I wanted to put my faith in the work of his Son Jesus. It was a process that took from the early 80's until 1994.

D Louth 77

 

God does not heal through medicine, man does. God did not invent medicine as there was no such thing as creation. Man discovered medicine because of evolution.

 

The start of the universe occurred because of physics, chemistry and mathematics not a figment of my imagination...!

 

What's the point of omnipotence if you are reduced to being an impotent spectator? It's a bit pathetic, isn't it?

The Old Testament Yahweh had no qualms at all about interfering, smiting various unsuspecting people, and saving the righteous. He turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt, IIRC. Is this Yahweh the same one as the current hands-off version?

Christianity seems to have quite an unseemly interest in "smut", as you put it. All sorts of restrictions on various bedroom activities are in force. Ironic given that Jesus's mother was an unmarried teenage parent.

 

God given intelligence

It was Yahweh who gave man a mind to discover the things of his creation that could be used to help heal. But as all things are sustained by Him, he can choose the modus operandi/method of healing.

D Louth 77

 

Mmmmm... I'm leaving you all to it. I chose my path back in 1969 when I was ten years old. I chose science.

 

Hands on

The Yahweh of the Old and New Testament are one and the same and he is still very much hands on but in accordance with his plans not ours.

Please refrain from being offensive. Marys role in Jesus birth was very special and not some teenage pregnancy as you put it( though the bare facts of that statement are true your tone is offensive.)

I for one value the medical profession and in that context, want to thank you mr Devil for all your hard work and study. However as the debate is now descending to the gutter I will not be continuing with it. I was afraid this would happen and sadly have been proved right.

Good Night.

D Louth