[Review] CD lathe update

what is this ?

"A supplementary question for you. How bits of data are on a standard audio CD?"

and

"Once you have done this please explain how, by treating a disc, with the product you mention, this will reduce the UNCORRECTED bit rate that is coming off of the disc."

Why do I need to explain anything ...I make no claims as to how it works ....could be magic for all I know. I've only ever quoted from the maker.

the differences are certainly startlingly obvious ......

I'll second melorib.....

if your pal or work mate [funny how its alway a mate or pal] has one and makes no difference ...why has he still got it ?

If it made no difference to a cd why keep it, I'd have had it on ebay so fast you'd see smoke coming off it ....!

Still your the only person who has had hands on experience thats said it doesn't work. That also speaks volumes ...did you listen to a treated disc and a control disc ? Was it in your system or his ?

 

You are the one saying the following

a never having used the unit let alone heard the results
b guessing as to the results ..as they read one or two texts on the subject. So must know everything
c turning down all attempt to try it ..as they know it can't possibly work
d telling porkies ...when they do hear it, they can't tell any difference


a) I have heard discs treated with this product
b) I do know how this technology works, in vert great detail actually
c) see a
d) oh dear is that your argument.!


You asked me for some references in Ken Pohlmann's book I gave you the chapter topics if not the chapter numbers.
Dont forget we do live in a world where certain laws of Physics are known and relevant in this case. For a change in sound to take place something has to happen to the data being read off of the disc.

Now all you want to say is listen to the music. I am happy to do that!
I did and it was a product that did nothing. It also goes against the basic principles of Digital Audio that have been know and implimented for decades now. See above regarding the laws of Physics

It just looks like a cynical attempt to increase profits.

 

link to my findings

 

Perhaps "Shiner", you listen to Music in a different way? Not wishing to to go off topic, this is something I believe contributes to the reason some people only hearing differences with Cables.

Of course, it's depends on the quality of your set up, Take a CD Player with a poor transport and jitter levels, and I'd imagine the effect of a treated would be hard to hear.

Zanash has kindly just treated some CD's for myself, I will as normal post my comments soon.

 

this kind of argument will go on forever - some people here / don't hear differences between cables either...

I think a lot of it boils down to your frame of mind - at times when I'm relaxed the music sounds much better than when I'm stressed out for example

 

That is just gobbledygook(sp?).

What has any of the second paragraph got to do with treating a physical disc when a standard untreated one has so few uncorrected errors in the first place.


And for the record
Chapters 4 Digital Audio Reproduction
Chapter 5 Error Correction and
Chapter 8 Optical Disc Media are one ones to read and understand in Pohlmanns book
Pricinciples of Digital Audio Fifth Edition
isbn 0-07-144156-5

 

shiner ......

there are many things that will stop you hearing any changes you actually allude to some ....

if you can tell us on what gear you listened to the lathed cd that your "friend" so kindly cut for you ...we may be able to appreciate why your not hearing anything .....

philip king.......

looks like you went to a great deal of trouble ...... for me music is to listened to and enjoyed .....not disected like some lab specimen. DB tests are notoriusly difficult and often are self defeating. I know I've been there..... have you not thought that some days your system sounds better and on others not ? How can you possibly carry out psuedo scientific test when your fixed parameters are actually varriables ?

The 50 or so discs I've now cut all have gained something, some less than others granted. I've enough duplicate coppies to be able to demonstrate the difference to other interested parties.

I just feel sorry for those that can't hear the difference ...as stellabagpuss says ...and so rudely put down

people do listen in different ways and for different musical cues.....

you'll just have to trust me on this one ......

 

Just to amuse Zanash. I was at my collegues house, he was kind enough to offer his hospitality.. He has Sonus Faber Cremonas. a Moon pre and power amp and dont know which model but it was
I know he had a professional room treatment done as he has a dedicated listening room and more money than sense if you ask me! But is does sound very nice indeed in the room but you expect that wouldnt you after all the money on room treatments?
I wonder if that is good enough in your eyes?

I know as far as I was concerned there no difference. but I was in his home after all and he was kind enough to invite me, I am not going to slate him. Would you?

But all of this is rather a waste of time because you havent answered my original points. Perhaps you would so kind as to answer those?

We are still awaiting your views on why a treatmeant is going to reduce an already inconsequential number uncorrected errors is going to make a difference?


Oh and by the way. I dont trust you on this. :MILD:

 

As an owner of this product and now feeling guilty for sparking the whole thing off in the first place. Can I reiterate, it improves the sound significantly. I dont want it to - as i don't want to have to clear up all these shavings, I'd love it not to work then i can get money back via a sale and not have to mess around with pens and things. Alas - sadly - it works very well indeed. Very well. I dont understand the science, and I dont really care. I recall opinions once upon a time that all amplifiers sound the same - they dont of course. Anyway - who cares about the science, it works and if you can't hear the difference I'd respectfully suggest your kit isn't up to revealing the terrific imaging this modification reveals - which is always possible isn't it?

 

I don't really feel expalining my thoughts would be of any help "Shiner", you can believe, and take what ever view you like,The way we Human's listen to music really is another debate, and deserves a discussion on it's own.

As "Mr Cat" has stated, it's like the cable debate revisted...you say yes, I say no etc,etc,etc.

Like Zanash and many other forum members, I perfer to take a positive view to new treatments/tweeks. That's the beauty of HI-FI there are lot's of variable's, and although I haven't tried the Treated CD's yet, it seems you are the first person who hasn't heard a difference.
Why not take Zanash offer up, and have a re-listen on your own equipment? That's another positive thing about the Zerogain, there are plently of members who are pro-active, in regards to tweeks etc. To myself, it looks like you have nothing to lose, so give it a go.

 

Its amazing....how my humble low res system can show up the differences ..where as that super hi end system can't .....

I'd say somethings amiss somewhere.

Larkrise was good enough to lathe a disc for me ...just one it took less than half a track for me to confirm the extra performance this produced over the standard disc of the same recording.

The level of change is similar to upgrading the preamp ....I'm just sorry your missing out.

my low res system by the way .......quad 99cdp2 cyber800 ML aerius i's plus deq 2496, src2496, aa5, 77pre....

 

Pete,

I have had this twice now with expensive kit £20K+, yet on a £900 cdp and £1100 amp £650 speakers the differenices are pretty bloody obvious to all that have listened so far, using their own cd's!!
Just relaying the experiances of myself.

 

Zanash - don't think that's a low res system you have there and congrats on using the excellent Martin Logans - and I wasn't - just in case of misinterpretation - being hi-fi snobbish, at the moment my preamp is a £150 Malaysian passive for eg - but that's another story. However - just wondered whether some systems reveal differences that others wont detect. I do know that some CD players/transports dont appear to reveal the improvements as much as others - though the majority do reveal the improvements in sound.

 

According to the instructions for the CD Sound Improver the edge of the CD is reduced to 0.2mm thick by the beveling process (from a nominal 1.2mm thick). At this thickness the polycarbonate edge will be fragile and damage prone. Easily chipped.

Putting aside the question of whether or not CD beveling has any real merit, the manufacturer makes no mention of this.

CD rot occurred in early compact discs precisely because the aluminum layer was too close to the edge of the disc, meaning damage to the edge of the disc resulted in oxidation of aluminum layer rendering the disc unplayable. It seems a little unwise therefore to go shaving the edge back to 0.2mm. Time will tell, but I'd suggest wholesale beveling of a CD collection might not be a smart move.

CD's are not nearly as tough or everlasting as was first suggested.

 

I agree ....your spot on

I've several cds that have rot .....that have never been near the lathe...one was bought like it, before I knew what to look for.

As suggested by a previous post, the pen may be designed to seal the edges .....but as you so rightly point out the beveled edge doesn't intrude on the data layer. With careful storage and use I can see any greater problem than the normal degredation cd's are prone to.....

conversley cd's have never been cheaper ....so why not treat them as a consumable ?


I suspect the higher end cdp's may be engineered to be less susceptable to reflected defracted ir ? all that extra money must go somewhere.

 

To summarise the situation.

You believe this product works, but have no idea how it works other than beleiving the nonesense that the maker spouts.
Even though I have pointed to an excellent text book and even pointed which chapters to read you still have no idea

You try the "you havent used it" so cant comment trick, but this has been thrown back at you. Now the system that it was tested on is too good!! (thats a first!).

You believe some old rubbish about a black pen "sealing" the edge of the polycarbonate, even though a member of the chemical industry with an indepth knowledge of how aluminium oxidizes in air tells you otherwise.

You of course also think the Philip King who tried this nonesense product and found nothing better than guess work is also deaf or stupid.

You constantly refuse to answer some pretty basic questions about the digital replay technology as it appears you have no knowledge at all. But dont worry, when you grow up you will think back on these times with a touch of embrassment as to how foolish you were to believe in such a load of old bolony.

I was reading something on Hifiwigwam from a guy there who said this:
"Its audio mate, anyone in the electronics industry treats its like the shite on your shoe after you have stepped in something"

Whilst completely unrelated to this topic, shows why this sort of thing and mindless automatons like you make the rest of the electronics world look on audio as a place for geeks and charlatans.

Thankfully I work in the nuclear industry which is well away from this sort of nonesense.

Enjoy grinding your discs and painting the edges to "seal" them. You will laugh at it in a few years time. The rest of us are laughing at you now!

 

OK answer this please? I'm going to reduce this discussion to a basic question.

Why do my lathed Cds sound a lot better, meaning clearer soundstage, more detail, nicer listening experience?

 

I'll have a crack if anyone fancies sending a couple of cd'rs.

I dont mind posting them on to someone else.

Perhaps a test cd with 3 songs on (or so), 2 copies - one with 'a' on , one with 'b' on - got to say if you prefer one over t'other and which one... at the end like...

what do you reckon?

might be a bit of fun.

I know we did something similar with an illuminator thingy a few years back.

 

Shiner, (John)

I do admire a principle adherer and some one who is prepared to stand his ground. I do too
Now I do have respect for Tones (the elder) over the years we have many a interesting discussing and I firmly believe his views, his knowledge is first rate and truthful and his staunch non belief in all things snake oily, are a pinnacle on this and many a forum.
He is a gentleman too, while I don't share all his views, we do agree to disagree. Hopeful with healthy respect.
While I may not have Tones (the elder) total chemical knowledge, My background is Mechanical and electronic engineering, aerospace, flight control and fuel systems (Bsc Eng Hons)
So In answer to your comment on this quote.

"Its audio mate, anyone in the electronics industry treats its like the shite on your shoe after you have stepped in something"

Your response

"Shows why this sort of thing and mindless automatons like you make the rest of the electronics world look on audio as a place for geeks and charlatans."

I made the above statement on WW
So, having an opinion and not being able to express it in this form tags me a "mindless automatons" does it?
Prehaps we are tired of being viewed in that way, just because someone has not composed a full office formulated bullet point reply (with corrected typo lol!) does not make them any the less capable Shiner.
The statement is valid in any form and on that day, that is the way I choose to show it.

Now going back to the Audiodesk lathe,
I have being using one personally for over 10 months (to great effect) if a very large selection of systems, ranging from £1500+
Now early in the thread I did post that on 2 occasions I had heard virtually no positive effect at all in £30K plus set ups.
This I am happy with, I have also heard it make very worth while improvements in systems of the same outlay too.
Why? being honest I can't give you an answer because I don’t know, and those guys on here Z/G will also know If I can't explain anything 'snakey ' I will not dish out marketing B/S.
I will point out though, our workshop uses a spectral analyser/ small scale seismometer and full rta and modal measurement facilities, we do fully explore (to the best of our abilities) things that interest us that have a bearing on the services we provide.
I'm glad your the nuclear industry in which you work is well away from this sort of nonsense.
I mean we wouldn't want a Homer Simpson playing uranium marbles in the cooling ponds now would we
I would also like to offer you the opportunity for you to sample the effects of the lathe (purely as an experiment to your ears) on your own discs (which I will gladly replace F.O.C.) if you feel that in time the have deteriorated.
I would also suggest as you feel strongly on this issue, you contact the manufacturers direct with you thoughts on this matter and run the response past Tones.
I have stopped looking at the 'front' of the product so to speak these days, However I thoroughly check out ALL the aspects of the items we sell (again to best of our abilities) to see weather or not it does what it says on the tin. But also I do respect that these 'snakey' bits are not for every one, neither I am suggesting that people are stupid in any way, after all the bottom line is this, Its your hard earned folding, if it doesn't work you simply take it back. Tony

 

We seem to have a hotly debated topic here.

I hate to say this but (FWIW) I was given lathed disc recently....and noticed an improvement in detail and sound staging over the standard recording. I wouldn't say it was night and day but i did notice the difference.




cheers,

David.