[Review] CD lathe update

I really couldn't care less about chapters in books, wave-lengths, the distance between pits etc - I think audiophiles have long since got the bottom line on the value of text book stuff when it comes to sound. An amp is an amp - a speaker is a speaker etc. I don't think so. I'm more concerned with what i can hear.

I'd still (STILL) like Mr Shiner to explain to me why i (and it seems others) can hear such a significant improvement in lathed discs- a question which seems to be avoided and shot down with stuff about maths. I can't hear Maths and distances between pits - i can hear soundstage. BTW I am certainly not gullible as I've said before I didn't really want to buy this - but it's a must have. - sorry and all that. So. . . If there's nothing to hear then. . . let me see now, er how can I put this text book style - - well we wouldn't hear any difference would we and some of us wouldn't be taking time to post reccomendations for products, not in the interest of scoring brownie points but just to let other know that there's something out there that will give us more enjoyment from our CDs?
 
larkrise said:
I'd still (STILL) like Mr Shiner to explain to me why i (and it seems others) can hear such a significant improvement in lathed discs
Click to expand...

Expectation? Overactive imagination? Alien mind control?

It's a mystery.


-- Ian
 
Perhap we might be able to appreciate where shiners coming from if he tells us what kit he's current using in his own system ?


shiner....
Are you going to contacting trading standards, which or whatchdog ?

If your so certain this is a "scam" why don't you "put your money where your mouth is" . I'm certain they would be very interested in your contribution as you'd be able to quote chapter and verse from you text books. I've found them to have been very helpful in the past. You'd then be able to prove that these things are scams to your hearts content. May be you've missed your calling ?

I'm also going to assuming that you've not taken WM up on his offer ...though after your abusive comments I be suprised if it was still open. Strange that ....when it comes down to the crunch Naysayers never take up honestly made offers...I should know I've made enough, even invited one chap round to prove my point, but he refused.

I'd have done the same for you shiner ...right up to the point you lost it.
 
Zanash. You are a little slow on the uptake arent you?.

I replied to your friend saying why did I need him to "lathe" some discs when I have access to a product within walking distance of my home.
Is it important that some "believer" does it and covers it Buzzard Salve(tm) or something?

What is missing from people like you is an understanding of technology. I have explained a bit about the Brewster Window and a very basic description of the way the laser pickup system works. But you just dont believe it. You and your ilk believe that the facts are some sort of democracy. I have pointed you to one of the best freely available books on the subject as it save me typing a hold load of text on a subject. "Principles of Digital Audio by Ken Pohlmann. Fifth Edition. Now you say you have the book, while I respectfully suggest you spend some time reading it. If there is anything you dont understand, then please feel gfree to contact me;)

The Bewster Window exists. the CD pickup system has been working for many 20+ years. It has been revisited a few times with the advent of DVD, SACD and DVD-A. Not in any of these situations have the boffins at the comapnies involved found an issue with "stray light". It is because the issues with the BW have been fixed many years before CD was commercial product.

You can choose to believe anything you like. But your beliefs do not effect in anyway the facts.
Those facts are freely available to anyone wishing to look for them. If you dont understand them that is a different matter. To be honest I think that is the problem here but you are to proud/stubborn to admit it.

BTW, If you want to find out the equipment I have you can search on my name. I have already told you what equipment my work collegue has so I wont repeat that.
 
STELLABAGPUSS said:
Unfortantly Shiner,as right as you may be quoting past papers, I always keep an open mind, didn't Philips claim "Perfect Sound" when CD was released to the public..
Click to expand...
Not past papers, first hand practical experience of Lasers and there applications. There is nothing wrong with an open mind, as long as it doesnt fall out:cool:
You are I believe correct, the marketing department of Philips probably did claim Perfect Sound. So what? How does that effect how the technology actually works.?


STELLABAGPUSS said:
Another factor in regards to the improved sound, and why it varies from disc to disc, quite a lot of CD's are not perfectly round when they are manufactured, you can obeserve this if you take the lid off most CD/DVD players these days, the disc will wobble quite a lot if it's bad, with a Lathed CD the effects are really reduced, meaning less error correction for the player, I'd imagine, and I'm guessing here, that's why so many people "Including Myself" claim that the feel and timing are improved, is it just a case that the error correction is being used less ? Perhaps WM or Zanash could answer that one?
As for Green Pens, I purchased one back in the early 90's, and couldn't hear any difference, however recently gave the Green Pen another try, and was surprised to hear a difference, all be it a small one.
Click to expand...

If a disc that is "treated" wobbles less, which subsequently changes the sound, then might I suggest that it is probably because the player itself has some significant problems, possibly due to a lack of proper decoupling between the transport and output clocking stages.

May I also suggest you read the book by Pohlmann as you will learn that the error correction routines are in use at all times.
All of the error correction that is applied is done when reading off the media, before it is decoded, deinterleaved actually, deinterleaving is part of the error detection an correction process, and reconstructed. At that point, all error correction is applied and if it failed, error concealement is applied. We have already covered the fact that there aboy 5-20 uncorrected errors per disc. The disc holds a maximum of approx 6.3 billion bits.
That is a rather good hit rate dont you think?. That is the basis of the argument that the advocates of this product have todate failed to address. It was the same with the green pen, which a quick search of usenet shows was actually started as a joke many years ago and seems to have taken on a life of its own. It now has evoled into this "thing". Isn't Evolution a wonderful thing?

Thank you Charles Darwin
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Zanash was kind enough to lathe a CD for me (duplicate copy of Genesis' Seconds Out disc 2), so having spent a morning listening, I thought I'd post my initial experiences here. I'm not interested in offering any 'proof' for what I think I hear, so my method was cheerfully unscientific and only intended to convince me. It involved listening first to the treated CD, then the untreated CD to form an impression of any perceived differences, then trying to identify which disc was being played after blind shuffling and loading (cue much closed-eyes CD drawer manipulation and funny business with towels...). I used both my main system (dcs p8i, Acoustic Research pre, Bryston powers, BW N802) and the more budget system in my home gym (Pioneer dv656a, Marantz 7200, Mission M53). I am not a particularly analytical listener ââ'¬â€œ I like to be carried away by the music ââ'¬â€œ so whenever I listen to new kit or tweaks, I'm after significant changes. This is also because I'm well aware that I can listen for a small change and persuade myself that I can hear it ââ'¬â€œ so I like to feel confident that I am not cheating myself.

I found I could hear a difference but only consistently and clearly on one particular passage. There is a passage at 4'14 on Dance on a Volcano with an extended drum dialogue. I heard the lathed disc producing a bigger, meatier sound (subjectively louder, though the volume knob was kept identical). The drums sounded fuller, with more body, and more realistic. The difference was far more significant on the higher end rig and very easy to identify, but I still identified the right CD 3 out of 3 times on the budget rig (yes, I know that's a statistically insignificant sample but I also know that I didn't have to think hard about making my selection) . On the big rig, I also felt the cymbals had a sweeter shimmer to them ââ'¬â€œ but this was less obvious on the other rig.

The rest of the CD is quite dense ââ'¬â€œ it's a live recording with a not brilliantly separated production. I thought I could hear some slight benefits on the warmth and clarity of the vocal line, and on sweetness of high treble, in some tracks ââ'¬â€œ but this fell into my 'could be persuading myself' category, and I didn't try to identify based on this.

I certainly heard enough to convince me to listen further; I'll also try it out on my kids, who have absolutely no agenda! Thanks again Zanash for taking the time to shave the CD for me!
 
I'd suggest you use your ears a little more ....

There are at least three more people on the forum who have now heard the lathe cd's in there own systems.....and guess which side they fall.


So thats a no then ...your not interested in WM gracous offer ?

By the way, I know of him but he's not a "freind " as you put. To imply that we are part of some sort of organised scam frankly beggers belief.

As previously stated if you feel so strongly take your claim to trading standards ...thats what there therefore.

Shiner ...

did you miss my question ...what gear are you currently using ?

We could then perhaps understand why your not hearing what nearly everyone else seems to be.
 
So er - still not answering the old question then?


Shiner said:
Zanash. You are a little slow on the uptake arent you?.

I replied to your friend saying why did I need him to "lathe" some discs when I have access to a product within walking distance of my home.
Is it important that some "believer" does it and covers it Buzzard Salve(tm) or something?

What is missing from people like you is an understanding of technology. I have explained a bit about the Brewster Window and a very basic description of the way the laser pickup system works. But you just dont believe it. You and your ilk believe that the facts are some sort of democracy. I have pointed you to one of the best freely available books on the subject as it save me typing a hold load of text on a subject. "Principles of Digital Audio by Ken Pohlmann. Fifth Edition. Now you say you have the book, while I respectfully suggest you spend some time reading it. If there is anything you dont understand, then please feel gfree to contact me;)

The Bewster Window exists. the CD pickup system has been working for many 20+ years. It has been revisited a few times with the advent of DVD, SACD and DVD-A. Not in any of these situations have the boffins at the comapnies involved found an issue with "stray light". It is because the issues with the BW have been fixed many years before CD was commercial product.

You can choose to believe anything you like. But your beliefs do not effect in anyway the facts.
Those facts are freely available to anyone wishing to look for them. If you dont understand them that is a different matter. To be honest I think that is the problem here but you are to proud/stubborn to admit it.

BTW, If you want to find out the equipment I have you can search on my name. I have already told you what equipment my work collegue has so I wont repeat that.
Click to expand...
 
midlifecrisis said:
Zanash was kind enough to lathe a CD for me (duplicate copy of Genesis' Seconds Out disc 2), so having spent a morning listening, I thought I'd post my initial experiences here. I'm not interested in offering any 'proof' for what I think I hear, so my method was cheerfully unscientific and only intended to convince me. It involved listening first to the treated CD, then the untreated CD to form an impression of any perceived differences, then trying to identify which disc was being played after blind shuffling and loading (cue much closed-eyes CD drawer manipulation and funny business with towels...). I used both my main system (dcs p8i, Acoustic Research pre, Bryston powers, BW N802) and the more budget system in my home gym (Pioneer dv656a, Marantz 7200, Mission M53). I am not a particularly analytical listener ââ'¬â€œ I like to be carried away by the music ââ'¬â€œ so whenever I listen to new kit or tweaks, I'm after significant changes. This is also because I'm well aware that I can listen for a small change and persuade myself that I can hear it ââ'¬â€œ so I like to feel confident that I am not cheating myself.

I found I could hear a difference but only consistently and clearly on one particular passage. There is a passage at 4'14 on Dance on a Volcano with an extended drum dialogue. I heard the lathed disc producing a bigger, meatier sound (subjectively louder, though the volume knob was kept identical). The drums sounded fuller, with more body, and more realistic. The difference was far more significant on the higher end rig and very easy to identify, but I still identified the right CD 3 out of 3 times on the budget rig (yes, I know that's a statistically insignificant sample but I also know that I didn't have to think hard about making my selection) . On the big rig, I also felt the cymbals had a sweeter shimmer to them ââ'¬â€œ but this was less obvious on the other rig.

The rest of the CD is quite dense ââ'¬â€œ it's a live recording with a not brilliantly separated production. I thought I could hear some slight benefits on the warmth and clarity of the vocal line, and on sweetness of high treble, in some tracks ââ'¬â€œ but this fell into my 'could be persuading myself' category, and I didn't try to identify based on this.

I certainly heard enough to convince me to listen further; I'll also try it out on my kids, who have absolutely no agenda! Thanks again Zanash for taking the time to shave the CD for me!
Click to expand...

So its not just my imagination ...theres something going on

I thought track four [?] the last track really opened out ....

No extra bass or treble as such....but more air and space.. and a sense of the venues scale.

Well shiner thanks for pointing out what your gear is in 104 ....

still none the wiser .... you've 25 posts and as far as can see no say what your curently using but without reading everyone [yawn] .

So come on don't be shy why can't you just tell us ?
 
Why do you make things so difficult? I found the thread and post number within seconds.

The Newcomers thread, page 14 post number 199.

If that is the length you go to to research information, god help us.

Would you like to comment on the technicalities of the topic or are you just going to keep repeat "I can hear it, I can hear it"
 
midlifecrisis - can I borrow the 2 cd's after your done?

I'm even prepared to listen to Genesis (god help me) in the interests of science!

I think we need someone a bit more sceptical of tweaks to try the thing - Tones, Sideshowbob, myself, and others spring to mind.
 
So is someone going to stick an analyser on the outputs (analogue of course) of a CDP and measure 2 disks and prove one way or the other if there is really any difference ?. They could then post it here and we could all go away.

Cos for my money both sides arguements are flawed and anecdotal.

To put my "money where my mouth is" I have heard a difference on a lathed and nespaed CD.

Now was that so hard to figure out ?
 
indolent said:
So is someone going to stick an analyser on the outputs (analogue of course) of a CDP and measure 2 disks and prove one way or the other if there is really any difference ?.
Click to expand...

Now, what sort of analyser would do that?
 
Shiner said:
Why do you make things so difficult? I found the thread and post number within seconds.

The Newcomers thread, page 14 post number 199.

If that is the length you go to to research information, god help us.

Would you like to comment on the technicalities of the topic or are you just going to keep repeat "I can hear it, I can hear it"
Click to expand...


talk about hard work or are just being obtuse

its simple

you say ......somthing along the lines of

the cdp I'm using is
the amps such and such
the speakers are what do you call em's

After all it was only a polite request .....all this flim flam make me think there something amiss, are you ashamed of it ?

Theres no need, as I'm certain everyone has gear that reflects his interest and enthusiasm for the musical form related to level of his disposable income.

Oh the other thing is not everyone has the relevent test gear to hand ...and often can only rely on the accoustic analysers provide for free [ears]

I'm in a position to say I trust my ears .....if you need to fall back on a more technical device to make your mind up ...well thats your problem.

As to

Would you like to comment on the technicalities of the topic or are you just going to keep repeat "I can hear it, I can hear it"

Why would I ?

you stated in post 54 that

"If you understood Digital Audio and read an excellent publication like
Ken Pohlmann -- Principles of Digital Audio

You will realise the folly of this product"


you have not said why .....

may be you could enlighten us ?
 
bottleneck said:
midlifecrisis - can I borrow the 2 cd's after your done?

I'm even prepared to listen to Genesis (god help me) in the interests of science!

I think we need someone a bit more sceptical of tweaks to try the thing - Tones, Sideshowbob, myself, and others spring to mind.
Click to expand...
Sure, PM me your address. In my defence, it is old 70s progtastic wacko Genesis rather than 80's MOR singles Genesis, which I wouldn't have in the house!
 
Shuggie said:
Now, what sort of analyser would do that?
Click to expand...

I am sure there are lots of complex expensive ways to do it but I am guessing a PC with soundcard inputs and some freeware analyser software would do the job.

If you can record your records onto MP3 then this stuff has to be easily available.

If I had a desktop i would go out and buy a card and play around - Maybe there is a USB one out there for laptops - I might take a look around the pc sites tonight and see.
 
indolent said:
I am sure there are lots of complex expensive ways to do it but I am guessing a PC with soundcard inputs and some freeware analyser software would do the job.

If you can record your records onto MP3 then this stuff has to be easily available.

If I had a desktop i would go out and buy a card and play around - Maybe there is a USB one out there for laptops - I might take a look around the pc sites tonight and see.
Click to expand...

Good luck. Let us know how you interpret the information, and which analyser you use and what parameters you use in the analysis. Alternatively, you could just use a Tricorder. In my line of work (occupational hygiene) too many people think that there is just such a magic gadget that will tell them everything about everything. Problem is, no such gadget exists.

The human senses and the processing power of the brain will always tell us something that no analyser ever will. That's why this thread is becoming rather tiresome.

For those hardcore objectivists out there - for God's sake listen to some music and relax! You don't need to question everything! Someone else's experience may just point to a truth.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top