Reviewing the reviewers ...

[The Devil]

Originally posted by timpy
If you mount the motor on the platter, you risk rumble through transmitted motor noise. If you mount if off a sprung board a'la LP-12 (and many others), the potential exists for speed stability to be compromised marginally by the relative movement between the two.

Well yes, absolutely. In theory.

The fact that this effect doesn't seem to exist in real life needn't spoil a good theory.

If this 'warbling' effect were bad enough to be audible, as Jason has suggested, there's no way on Earth the deck concerned could be famous for its good pace, rhythm & timing!

The notion is deeply ridiculous, isn't it?

The other strange theory that this reviewer believes is that Mana stands adversely affect the second half of a note.

 

[Graham C]

I may be coming into this discussion a bit late [in every sense - I havent owned a TT for ~10 years..]

I could hear slight pitch rises on my P3 after sudden drops in recorded level after a peak. This is due to less drag on the stylus. I imagine this could be much more noticeable with a suspended TT - with all those lacky bands and chewing gum inside.

 

[The Devil]

I agree, you could certainly imagine that it would be worse on an LP 12.

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by garyi
I have never heard any warbling, (unintentional of course) The way I see it this industry is full of geeks, geeks making it, geeks selling it, geeks reviewing it and of course geeks buying it.

Urm - I've never heard a turntable that DOESN'T wow (or to lesser extent flutter) and that includes the Michell Orbe, DNM Rota and the LP12. Of course, the warbling/wowing is less than on say, my Rega Planar3 (which itself isn't bad for the cost) but it's still there - I notice it more on vinyl than tape in fact for some odd reason...

The LP12 warbles like a SOB if you walk near it - due to the suspension. If well isolated it's not too bad though. Mind you, I still have an axe to grind about that bass hump - maybe the 3 or 4 I've heard in my time have all been poorly set up - though since 2 of those were at Linn dems that's pretty shod. The one in Audio-T Reading is very good though...

Why is the Garrard 401 less fashionable? It looks a billion times better than the dated 301 - although the strobe markings on the platter are a bit Saturn V rocket...

 

[merlin]

Great shame this thread appaears to be about warbling

I assumed it would be about wittering, the pompous assertions of the corrupt audiophile press, and our chance to slate the self styled gurus and show them up for just what they are

Surely that would be more interesting than warbling, can't say I noticed any pitch instability, but then what do I know, I just listen to music.

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by domfjbrown

The LP12 warbles like a SOB if you walk near it - due to the suspension. ...maybe the 3 or 4 I've heard in my time have all been poorly set up..

Yes, if you have footfall problems it's poorly set-up. Wall-mounting is best in this situation.

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by domfjbrown
Urm - I've never heard a turntable that DOESN'T wow (or to lesser extent flutter) and that includes the Michell Orbe, DNM Rota and the LP12.

Of course, before Ivor Tiefenbrun's great marketing revolution, wow, flutter and rumble were the main things that were noted about turntables. I don't think that anyone seriously considered listening as a realistic method of evaluation.

Things were far more objective and less subjective in general in those days

Why is the Garrard 401 less fashionable? It looks a billion times better than the dated 301 - although the strobe markings on the platter are a bit Saturn V rocket...

Totally agree and have no idea why the 301 is the more collectable of the two. I prefer the 401. I suppose that the 301 looks more 'antique'. The real trendy thing was to have twin 301s, each with the 12" SME arm.

 

[ReJoyce]

Graham is right.

Bub: Your Ninja should show the effect less because it has a repositioned motor.
Nine pound platter is irrelevant when you have a felt mat between it and the record.

>>> The other strange theory that this reviewer believes is that Mana stands adversely affect the second half of a note.

Never said that. It simply emphasises leading edge at the expense of the rest of the note. Of course I have never heard a well setup Mana system since your road to damascuss realisation that everyone else had it wrong. What is bizarre is that so many people enjoyed this badly setup Mana.


Timpy, rumble is only as issue if the motor is incorrectly driven. Look at the Rega supply. Or better hold an LP12 motor in your hand, first driven from a Basic or valhalla then from an Armageddon or Lingo. Much less vibration.


WM asked: but do you find difficult to be totaly objective in your own Personal assesment of new equipment? WM

I am totally subjective. If I don't like something I say I don't like it. I then explain the good points and hopefully somebody else can then decide if they would like it. Good example is the Lehmann black cube, wouldn't buy one but I can understand why others would, fantastic detail and tonality especially at the price but sounded slow and a little disjointed.

If you are asking whether I will accept that other gear is better than mine. No problem there. If you look at my conversion away from the one true Naim/Linn path by a small integraetd amplifier that cost less than the preamp I was using you will see I am happy to change my boxes and deliver praise where praise is due.


Fwiw, the same "warbling" (btw by warbling I mean a pitch shift but was trying to explain the sound in words Bub might understand ;->) effect an be heard by taking an old knackered record and cutting the hole in the middle so it is no longer circular. Stick the record on the deck so it is off centre. Ideally the record will have a nice piano or similar in the last track. Now play it if you can't hear the pitch shifting then you will never hear the pitch instability of a sprung deck. Like everything else it depends on the listener.


Cheers

Jason

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by ReJoyce



WM asked: but do you find difficult to be totaly objective in your own Personal assesment of new equipment? WM

I am totally subjective. If I don't like something I say I don't like it. I then explain the good points and hopefully somebody else can then decide if they would like it. Good example is the Lehmann black cube, wouldn't buy one but I can understand why others would, fantastic detail and tonality especially at the price but sounded slow and a little disjointed.

If you are asking whether I will accept that other gear is better than mine. No problem there. If you look at my conversion away from the one true Naim/Linn path by a small integraetd amplifier that cost less than the preamp I was using you will see I am happy to change my boxes and deliver praise where praise is due.

Jason

Thank you Jason, I wasn't trying to assertain your pro-standing, merely, a personal choice, If you like a given piece a lot, then do you find it tricky, to wipe that from your thoughts and start with 'A clean slate' when evaluating new products
I feel as you say, if you can identify their plusses and explain their preformance, even though yourself, it's not your area in which you prefer, then fair play, tis a tricky balance to achieve.
Cheers Tone

 

[Alex S]

<< The other strange theory that this reviewer believes is that Mana stands adversely affect the second half of a note. >> No that's me. Although I do admit that Mana trashes the beginning of notes too, only less so.

The LP12 is a quaint, charming device but wows and flutters like buggery compared to up to date alternatives. It is true that Mana helps mask some of the Linn's more obvious deficiencies.

Alex

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by ReJoyce
Fwiw, the same "warbling" (btw by warbling I mean a pitch shift but was trying to explain the sound in words Bub might understand ;->) effect an be heard by taking an old knackered record and cutting the hole in the middle so it is no longer circular. Stick the record on the deck so it is off centre. Ideally the record will have a nice piano or similar in the last track. Now play it if you can't hear the pitch shifting then you will never hear the pitch instability of a sprung deck. Like everything else it depends on the listener.

Jason - this has intrigued me - why do you suppose that eccentrically pressed records seem to show up the warbling MORE at end of side - I mean, if the deck's always running at 33/3rd?

My triple LP copy of BBC's Loved Up has one side (the other, inexplicably, seems fine!) where you can clearly hear eccentricity on the last track (Hardfloor's Acperience - of only 2 tracks on the side) - there's a sustained synth sound throughout most of the track and as you get nearer the end it clearly undulates more in pitch...

Just wandered...

Even WITH the pitch thing, the LP pees all over the (very rare) single CD version I have, which in turn pees all over the reissued double Totally Loved Up... Go figure...

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by ReJoyce

Nine pound platter is irrelevant when you have a felt mat between it and the record.

Oh, now I see...it's the felt mat that's at fault now, not the suspended design.

(btw by warbling I mean a pitch shift but was trying to explain the sound in words Bub might understand ;->)

Very good. Do you know what is meant by a 'canard'?

Of course I have never heard a well setup Mana system since your road to damascuss realisation that everyone else had it wrong. What is bizarre is that so many people enjoyed this badly setup Mana.

The Mana effect was still there, only less so.

Like everything else it depends on the listener.

Yes but so far, despite numerous magazine reviews over the past 25 years or so, you and Alex appear to be in a minority of approximately two with this 'wow & flutter like buggery'. How come no-one else has mentioned it, particularly as it's so allegedly obvious?

 

[penance]

Canard: a false or unfounded report or story; especially : a fabricated report

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by ReJoyce
I am totally subjective. If I don't like something I say I don't like it. Jason

Now I would like to ask a question here if I may Jason.

What association do you have with Pear Audio? You see, forgive me for my cynicism, but I find it strange that many professional reviewers systems are based almost exclusively around the products of one UK distributor (Martin Colloms being a good example). Now does that strike you as odd I mean, I have yet to find a system from one source which offers me everything I want.

Many stories have been recounted over the years, indeed I know of one speaker manufacturer (run by an Asian gentleman), who alledgedly used to supply one well respected audio critic with his weed No wonder the product was so highly thought of.

As for you Jason, it may well just be happy coincidence that whatever product John throws your way, seems to be the greatest and most musical thing since sliced bread. And of course I understand the compuction to tell the world how amazing this stuff is in print and on the internet. I would just like to know about the relationship, to kinda help to put your reviews into perspective. Many good companies in the hifi industry are sadly locked out by the audio rags these days, and yet certain distributors will get as much Collom ( ) space as they want. Now Mr reviewer(generic term, not referring to Jason), did you pay cash for that kit, or is it on extended loan

Now the forum has a few manufacturers who simply cannot question a critics motives on forae such as this, could seriously impact on their fledgling business. They are far more likely to post in a manner that suggests affection, intellectual equality, and rings. I on the other hand, don't make cables or speakers, neither do I sell anything. So I would just love to know how truly "subjective" the hifi press really is.

 

[The Devil]

Ouch! Good questions. :JPS:

 

[Markus S]

Originally posted by The Devil
Yes but so far, despite numerous magazine reviews over the past 25 years or so, you and Alex appear to be in a minority of approximately two with this 'wow & flutter like buggery'. How come no-one else has mentioned it, particularly as it's so allegedly obvious?

Bub, I can't say anything about your Ninja, never having heard it. I also haven't heard the Lingo 2 yet.

But a normal Linn with Armagaddon or Lingo 1 is substantially less speed stable than a Platine Verdier. This is pretty obvious if you listen to piano.

 

[joongul]

Originally posted by domfjbrown
why do you suppose that eccentrically pressed records seem to show up the warbling MORE at end of side - I mean, if the deck's always running at 33/3rd?

This is simple mathematics. When the platter is running at a constant angular velocity, the linear velocity at the groove is proportional to the distance between the center of the circulation and the groove.

Imagine a humongous disc of radius 1km. If the center is mislocated by 1mm, then on the outer track, the radius would be between (1km - 1mm) and (1km + 1mm), an error of 0.0001% which is certainly negligeable. Now if the innermost track was located at 2mm from the center of the spindle hole, then the radius would be between 1mm and 3mm. In this case one part of the groove goes 3 times as fast as the other part!

Of course this is an exaggerated situation but I hope this gives you some idea.

Joongul

 

[ReJoyce]

Originally posted by merlin
Now I would like to ask a question here if I may Jason.

Fire away.


>>> What association do you have with Pear Audio?

None, other than a friendly interaction with John Burns and a system made of Pear Audio components.


>>> You see, forgive me for my cynicism, but I find it strange that many professional reviewers systems are based almost exclusively around the products of one UK distributor (Martin Colloms being a good example).

Yes, Martin does use a large number of Absolute Sounds componeents but I think he is not the only person who highly rates the stuff Ricardo distributes. Many reviewers in the past were Naim Linn users. Because I do this reviewing stuff I have to have a stystem that is good sounding but also flexible and capable of exploiting the best bits of other components. But because it is only part time and I don't want a house full of HiFi I need a single system that works for me so in that sense I am a little different to the pros.


>>> Now does that strike you as odd I mean, I have yet to find a system from one source which offers me everything I want.

Then I'd keep looking. Fwiwi I haven't got a system from one source either. I use a Micromega CD player and hope to get a Densen at some point, Kimber cable, Hutter furniture and AudioWorks mains cables. As to the rest it is designed to work together and I am a great believer in systems being designed together giving very good results. There are many exceptions but single manufacturer / distributer systems often offer a very competitive sound quality without a load of hassle. Befiore the largely Pear Audio system I ran a largely Naim system. Similarly if I bought a valve system I would probably go for Rogue Audio + Amphion speakers which are also distributed together and make a good match. I would actually turn your argument round and ask why is it that using components from one distributer / maufacturer doesn't always offer the best solution?


>>> Many stories have been recounted over the years, indeed I know of one speaker manufacturer (run by an Asian gentleman), who alledgedly used to supply one well respected audio critic with his weed No wonder the product was so highly thought of.

I don't smoke anything ;->


>>> As for you Jason, it may well just be happy coincidence that whatever product John throws your way, seems to be the greatest and most musical thing since sliced bread.

I have never said any of that. At their respective price points I think they are excellent value and should be auditioned by anybody in the market. I think it would be very easy to find an equal number of people who agreed and and equal number who disagreed with those opinions. Fwiw, Roy Gregory recently gave the Dynavector DrT a rave review, HiFi World have highly praised the 20X recently. That said I believe another reviewer wasn't that impressed with the XX2. Chris Thomas was smitten with the Shahinian Starter. Roy Gregory will also review the Well Tempered reference soon which will be interesting because it will sit next to the big VPi and the Clearaudio master reference in his room.


>>> And of course I understand the compuction to tell the world how amazing this stuff is in print and on the internet. I would just like to know about the relationship, to kinda help to put your reviews into perspective.

I hope I have helped. John is a really nice guy and it turns out he likes similar stuff to me, great. If a component came in that sounded crap I would tell him.


>>> Many good companies in the hifi industry are sadly locked out by the audio rags these days, and yet certain distributors will get as much Collom ( ) space as they want.

One thing I don't think you can say about HiFi+, indeed I have heard a load of complaints that we review too much "garden shed" stuff.


>>> Now Mr reviewer(generic term, not referring to Jason), did you pay cash for that kit, or is it on extended loan

I did pay cash although pretty much everything I buy is discounted from rrp or ex-demo stock. The issue of long term loans is interesting. I don't actually see a problem with it to be honest as long as it is stated. For example Naim Audio have lent me various components over the last few years to help with specific reviews, does this make the review inevitably biased? I don't think so.


>>> Now the forum has a few manufacturers who simply cannot question a critics motives on forae such as this, could seriously impact on their fledgling business. They are far more likely to post in a manner that suggests affection, intellectual equality, and rings. I on the other hand, don't make cables or speakers, neither do I sell anything. So I would just love to know how truly "subjective" the hifi press really is.

I honestly don't know the answer to that one. One thing you can be sure of is that like any small industry with personalities there are people who are close friends and their are others who are enemies.

Cheers

Jason

 

[ReJoyce]

>>> Oh, now I see...it's the felt mat that's at fault now, not the suspended design.

Its a combination. The suspension causes variation in belt length and the mat slips. The pitch instability I was talking about is more due to the elasticity of the belt and the suspensions reaction. As the motor drives the platter it places tension on the belt which in turn deforms the suspension slightly. Any speed variation / motor vibration then causes the belt tension to vary and the causes the suspension to change its deformation resulting in pitch changes.


>>> Very good. Do you know what is meant by a 'canard'?

Its a French duck?


>>> The Mana effect was still there, only less so.

Probably means I'd have preferred the badly set up stuff.


>>> Yes but so far, despite numerous magazine reviews over the past 25 years or so, you and Alex appear to be in a minority of approximately two with this 'wow & flutter like buggery'. How come no-one else has mentioned it, particularly as it's so allegedly obvious?

It is obvious to me. It is probably obvious to all of those nasty reviewers out there who have been payed to lie by Linn ;->

You can't have it both ways Bub. You think reviewers (well one at least) are deaf then you use their reviews to justify your opinions. I think there have been a number of reviewers over teh years who have criticised teh LP12's pitch stability. Thing is it does everything esle so well you ignore the problems.

I was going to suggest a thought experiment to find out what deck you would recommend to a friend for the same money as a new LP12. But you would certainly have said: Buy one secondhand with lots of mana so it is a waste of time.

Cheers

Jason

 

[wadia-miester]

I do believe Martain Colloms have a really neat little psu device he loves at the moment, even took it out of his cdp and put in a pre-amp, I feel the guy has tatse (with just a hint of bais' in there ).
Jason, how many articles do you write for hifi+, and do you freelance for any others publications? Tone