Reviewing the reviewers ...

Good, I'm glad that I haven't upset you. I am actually prepared to entertain the notion that your WT is better than an LP12, it's just that I haven't heard one, and also Paul D, who has one of the best systems I've heard, good ears and a wealth of hi-fi knowledge, doesn't rate the WT decks very highly, preferring the Linn.

So I do have an open mind about it, honest.

 

Mmm…interesting discussion.

As far as the LP12 goes, I don't think it's 'the best turntable in the world' (far from it), but I think it's the best turntable to use with Naim amps if you value it's particular strengths and enjoy the character of sound such a combination will produce. In my opinion, it's about one's individual priorities and the all important system synergy .

Jason said: "I am a great believer in systems being designed together giving very good results."

Absolutely. Which is exactly what an LP12 with Naim amplification is all about. Fire a pair of Briks on the end, or some other speakers that form a synergistic match with the source, and you have an example of such a system. Therefore, it is no coincidence that most of the pro-LP12 camp participating in this discussion use Naim amps.

However, used outside of Naim (and some Linn) amps, the LP12's 'weaknesses' are revealed as deficiencies rather than being part of a sonic 'recipe' and, as a result, become less palatable. In my experience, the highly addictive 'rhythmic drive', 'bounce' - call it what you will - produced by a good LP12/Naim combo, and it's ability to showcase the music first and foremost as opposed to dissecting it for scrutiny, is unavailable from any other turntable/amp combination I've heard. Yes, there are more 'neutral' sounding T/T's out there, and also ones that better the LP12 in many of the prosaic areas of music reproduction but none, in my experience, are as much fun to listen to or get the feet tapping like a synergistically partnered LP12.

On another subject, as far as some of the negative comments I've read about Mana here are concerned, I'd just like to point out that there are numerous variable factors one needs to take into consideration before these comments can be regarded as in any way definitive.

Marco.

 

Marco,

Good post except ...

>>>there are numerous variable factors one needs to take into consideration before these comments can be regarded as in any way definitive

In my opinion they, and your opposite experience, can never be considered definitive no matter how many other factors are included.


Cheers

Jason

 

Absolutely, Jason, but it's important one always remembers this when conveying one's experiences.

For example, it is certainly not definitive that Mana 'screws up notes' or 'highlights leading edges'.

Marco.

 

However all those Mana leading edges, pale into insignificance if you know how to extract them without the use of said product, whilst retaining note body and presence and texture. food for thought.WM

 

>>> For example, it is certainly not definitive that Mana 'screws up notes' or 'highlights leading edges'.

Defnitely not definitive, but true to these ears (well the leading edge bit). Marco, don't try to start a fight here we don't want a repeat of the Mana and Naim forums.


Cheers

Jason

 

No Jason, my somewhat confrontational tone was to put your opinions into perspective, not to discredit them. We are all entitled to our opinions, but they are just that and we all (even professionals) have much to learn before being able to make definitive statements.

My setup allows me to get more of an understanding of the effects attributable to different components than others. It's interesting and educational at the same time. There is SO much we do not understand. I just feel it's important that people are made aware of this when professionals post on public forae.

 

I'm not particularly familiar with the LP12 and only slightly more so with Naim amplification, having 'moved in different circles'. However I'm curious about the Linn/Naim synergy thing and would appreciate a little more explanation.

My only reference for making any meaningful judgements on a system is to hear it with my own speakers. I have heard my speakers in a well set up, high end Naim system and was surprised at how good this sounded, not only with regard to the p. r. & t. qualities, but also in terms of its neutrality, presentation and general musicality (I'm still a valve amp man but credit where credit is due).

Unfortunately, I only heard the Naim amps with a Naim cd player as Tom's LP12 was 'out of sorts'. However, the Linn has been described in this thread, by its own advocates, as lacking in resolving capability - possibly due to a mid-bass hump in the frequency response.

My question is in what way is the Naim/Linn combo synergistic, compared with other high end turntables playing through Naim amplification? Surely the Naims don't compensate for a mid-bass hump.

Also, Merlin, have you experienced an increase in the LP12's resolution when the room has a mild suckout at those frequencies which tend to be over emphasized by the Linn?

Steve

 

Merlin,

Fair enough. But I think what you are saying is by being a reviewer I have more "clout" and need to be argued with more forcibly. Maybe that is true but I doubt people listen to me, I guess I'm too modest, what do you think Bub? ;->

So should I reinstate my signature so that its obvious I should be challenged?

Cheers

Jason

 

Marco, isn't that just a convoluted way of saying the turntable most likely to sound like an LP 12 is an LP 12?

 

Jason

I worship you

I bought Hutter on your say so and I still got it.

I think of it as a shrine to you.

Regards

Mick

 

Jason, I am expressing an opinion. Why should that start a fight? One should be able to discuss these matters amicably and passionately without 'falling out' with each other.

The point I'm making is that some of the comments aimed at Mana (yours included) are frequently expressed in a way that reads as fact rather than merely the result of one person's experience with a particular set of circumstances.

I don't doubt for a second that, to your ears (and some others) Mana is heard to 'highlight leading edges' or whatever, but there could be a myriad of reasons as to why this was the result of your listening experience, and some of it may not be down to the supports themselves - it is certainly not representative of what I hear when listening to a system set up on Mana (including my own). All I ask is that due consideration is given to other variable factors before subsequently expressing an opinion about Mana. Unfortunately, I often feel this is not the case.

Back to turntables now (hopefully)

Marco.

 

OMG - I'm away for a couple of days and I come back to find myself in a flat-earth/pink fish/naim/mana playground

Jason - if I were you I'd let people know that you are "in the trade" so to speak but it's up to you allthough I think vendors and manufacturers really should put it in their sig (I think it's in the guidelines somewhere).

AFAIC it doesn't give your views any more or less weight than anyone elses. HiFi is very subjective after all

Michael.

 

I thought we were considering signal induced wow? Which must originate in stylus drag?

In conventional wow and flutter terms the LP12 measures extremely well, motor problems would surely show up here?

Paul

 

Personally I sometimes add my signature but often leave it out as I like to be able to make the occasional comment without being seen as constantly plugging my speakers.

Steve (full signature below)
PS: Have you heard my speakers?

 

The Well Tempered Arm is suspended from filaments, if you pull on it it moves.

The Planar 3 has a elastically mounted motor, a thin stretchy belt, and a relatively light platter. Warble central.

The wow effect on WT should manifest itself as a flattening of the start of a note, and a sharpening of the decay. The LP12 should add some very mild vibrato.

FWIW I'm happy with my LP12 despite its faults, imagined or real. I paid about £1100 for it complete with Ekos way back in 1988. It doesn't owe me anything and I don't think the necessary investment to change it for something potentially better could possibly be justified.

Paul

 

Synergy is a concept that should be alien to hifi. Rather than use complementary crap why not just use competent components?

Unless we're talking about chemical mood modifiers? In which case I know nothing.

Paul

 

Yes I've often thought that trying to offset one problem in one problematic box with another problem in another problematic box (or cable etc) is a recipe for lo-fi.

 

Steve, any hi-fi system is simply an amalgamation of compromises assembled to appeal to the preferences of the listener. In my experience, an LP12 played through Naim amplification (more so preamps than power amps) traditionally make the most of each other's compromises to produce a synergistically balanced sound; i.e. their respective deficiencies do not detract from enjoyment of the music, but rather form a cohesive 'whole'. Whether this 'cohesive whole' is considered good or bad is of course entirely subjective.

Outside of Naim amplification, an LP12 is in my opinion more 'vulnerable' - it's (arguably) relatively unimportant deficiencies (musically speaking) are revealed by less coloured amplification, or amplification with a similar sonic signature; thereby 'over-egging' the pudding, so to speak.

To summarise, I feel that 'old school' Linn & Naim components go together like cheese and wine, or basil and tomato in a pasta sauce: one simply enhances the flavour of the other.

Marco.

 

Yes, but what exactly does 'competent' mean in a hi-fi context?

If you mean technically competent, then I would imagine it's highly possible to assemble a system of technically competent components and still end up with a crap sound - some Japanese hi-fi being a case in point.

Paul, you're not on about 'measuring' the performance of everything again are you?

In my experience, creating a musically satisfying hi-fi system is about assembling (through listening) a group of components that compliment each other sonically, thereby creating a 'balanced' overall sound. Even presuming one was able to assemble a system made up entirely of 'competent' components - whatever that may be - this would not guarantee optimum results.

Marco.