The Devil
IHTFP
Yes, but a week is a long time with your system Alex!
Reviewing the reviewers ...
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Alex S
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<< re-equinted with naim >> I thought that happened in Wrexham. Have to say its a great shame Marco hasn't joined this debate.
Anyway, Gary, last time I invited myself round you told me to bugger off - a bit rich for someone living in Watford I thought.
Anyway, Gary, last time I invited myself round you told me to bugger off - a bit rich for someone living in Watford I thought.
Eccentric pressings have orders of magnitude more 'wow' than the dynamic effect being discussed. (Yes I hear that one....)
What's puzzling me in the context of warbling is that if any turntable were going to show this effect it would be the Well Tempered (or for that matter the Rega Planar 3).
It would be worth putting some numbers on the root cause before speculating about the mechanical effects and how they relate to the audible effects. Tracking weight is in the order of 2g, if the drag were a significant fraction of that then we would be able to see the end of the tone arm dipping towards the record as the drag changed, and that phenomenon hasn't been reported yet..... So perhaps 0.2g pulling on the end of arm is realistic? How far does the sub-chassis move and how long does it take to reach its new position? That gives you the speed change and duration, and therefore the pitch change can be calculated. At the moment I'm seeing the chances of an audible phenomenon as zero, so I must be missing something.
Paul
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
This post is not aimed at any product or any person specifically.
I dont understand why people get anal when someone dares to criticize their favorite brand.
Is it because they feel the equipment theyve chosen is beyond criticism, or are they just displaying proud-clucky-hen noises about their fancy toys?
Feel free to criticize my gyrodec, my EAR 834p or any bit of kit, honestly I wont mind!
I think no product is beyond criticism, and no product is perfect.
We build mental images of the products we buy.. putting them on pedestals which justify their lofty price tags... and we can't stand to have them knocked off again.
True/False?
I dont understand why people get anal when someone dares to criticize their favorite brand.
Is it because they feel the equipment theyve chosen is beyond criticism, or are they just displaying proud-clucky-hen noises about their fancy toys?
Feel free to criticize my gyrodec, my EAR 834p or any bit of kit, honestly I wont mind!
I think no product is beyond criticism, and no product is perfect.
We build mental images of the products we buy.. putting them on pedestals which justify their lofty price tags... and we can't stand to have them knocked off again.
True/False?
Totally agree with your sentiments sir
The problem with this one is that the reviewer chappy comes up with the put down written in a manner that suggests it's gospel. I happen to like the LP12 for it's musical qualities. If I want hifi perfection, I look elsewhere
If only Jason realised that pitch stability or not, 70% of what he hears is being f**ked up by his surroundings, his mains is crap, and the ambient temperature is given to change. And don't even get me started on multiple drivers and omnidirectional speakers!
So exactly what difference the pitch stability makes to his enjoyment of music is so tiny as to make the charge of anal acceptable.
The problem with this one is that the reviewer chappy comes up with the put down written in a manner that suggests it's gospel. I happen to like the LP12 for it's musical qualities. If I want hifi perfection, I look elsewhere
If only Jason realised that pitch stability or not, 70% of what he hears is being f**ked up by his surroundings, his mains is crap, and the ambient temperature is given to change. And don't even get me started on multiple drivers and omnidirectional speakers!
So exactly what difference the pitch stability makes to his enjoyment of music is so tiny as to make the charge of anal acceptable.
ReJoyce
... Jason Hector that is.
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>>> The problem with this one is that the reviewer chappy comes up with the put down written in a manner that suggests it's gospel. I happen to like the LP12 for it's musical qualities. If I want hifi perfection, I look elsewhere
Fine, I'll get my coat. On every other forum I have posted on my opinion has been taken as just that an opinion and people were happy to argue. Nobody accused me of trying to write gospel I just give mt opinion, how hard is that to understand? The points above could easily be levelled at just about everyone else on this forum at one point or another so are you saying that I should be treated differently and have to hide what I think in half truths and fence sitting? Please (moderators?) let me know. If that is the case please remove my access rights.
I personnally belive (uh oh this will wind you up, a reviewers opinion!) that people have much more sense than to take me too seriously, Paul R is a good example. He is perfectly happy to challenge my opinion in his usual irrascible style. Gary and Bub will throw insults, then forget all about it and dissmiss me as deluded because my doctrine is different to theirs, you actually seem offended, why?
And for the last time the LP12 is a good deck but it is in no way the best at £1200 without arm, power supply or cartridge, I am not the only one that finds its pitch instability, bass hump, dynamic capability and lack of resolving power a problem. It still works very well in spite of these things because it gets the fundamentals right. Fwiw a year or two ago I would have been onthe opposite side of this argument, just search the Naim forum for proof. Since then i have heard more and better boxes and now have more music than ever before.
>>>If only Jason realised that pitch stability or not, 70% of what he hears is being f**ked up by his surroundings, his mains is crap, and the ambient temperature is given to change. And don't even get me started on multiple drivers and omnidirectional speakers!
Oh I see you don't agree with any part of my systems philosophy, right. Of course you've never heard it but since when should that stop your criticisms or sweeping statements? btw. The equipment I run has been designed to be very mains tolerant, anyway how do you know my mains is crap? My gear is about 40 feet in a straight line from a substation so should be pretty good and I have a seperate spur fitted. Similarly it is stand tolerant as well with little effect when changing supports and what the hell difference is ambient temperature going to make? A 1930's centrally heated UK house doesn't vary that much.
Cheers
Jason
Fine, I'll get my coat. On every other forum I have posted on my opinion has been taken as just that an opinion and people were happy to argue. Nobody accused me of trying to write gospel I just give mt opinion, how hard is that to understand? The points above could easily be levelled at just about everyone else on this forum at one point or another so are you saying that I should be treated differently and have to hide what I think in half truths and fence sitting? Please (moderators?) let me know. If that is the case please remove my access rights.
I personnally belive (uh oh this will wind you up, a reviewers opinion!) that people have much more sense than to take me too seriously, Paul R is a good example. He is perfectly happy to challenge my opinion in his usual irrascible style. Gary and Bub will throw insults, then forget all about it and dissmiss me as deluded because my doctrine is different to theirs, you actually seem offended, why?
And for the last time the LP12 is a good deck but it is in no way the best at £1200 without arm, power supply or cartridge, I am not the only one that finds its pitch instability, bass hump, dynamic capability and lack of resolving power a problem. It still works very well in spite of these things because it gets the fundamentals right. Fwiw a year or two ago I would have been onthe opposite side of this argument, just search the Naim forum for proof. Since then i have heard more and better boxes and now have more music than ever before.
>>>If only Jason realised that pitch stability or not, 70% of what he hears is being f**ked up by his surroundings, his mains is crap, and the ambient temperature is given to change. And don't even get me started on multiple drivers and omnidirectional speakers!
Oh I see you don't agree with any part of my systems philosophy, right. Of course you've never heard it but since when should that stop your criticisms or sweeping statements? btw. The equipment I run has been designed to be very mains tolerant, anyway how do you know my mains is crap? My gear is about 40 feet in a straight line from a substation so should be pretty good and I have a seperate spur fitted. Similarly it is stand tolerant as well with little effect when changing supports and what the hell difference is ambient temperature going to make? A 1930's centrally heated UK house doesn't vary that much.
Cheers
Jason
ReJoyce
... Jason Hector that is.
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Originally posted by Paul Ranson
>>>Eccentric pressings have orders of magnitude more 'wow' than the dynamic effect being discussed. (Yes I hear that one....)
I am not claiming it is as large, but I could hear pitch instability. Several people, two actually, that post here heard my LP12 perhaps they could comment on whether it was a good or bad one.
>>> What's puzzling me in the context of warbling is that if any turntable were going to show this effect it would be the Well Tempered (or for that matter the Rega Planar 3).
Could you explain why.
>>> It would be worth putting some numbers on the root cause before speculating about the mechanical effects and how they relate to the audible effects. Tracking weight is in the order of 2g, if the drag were a significant fraction of that then we would be able to see the end of the tone arm dipping towards the record as the drag changed, and that phenomenon hasn't been reported yet..... So perhaps 0.2g pulling on the end of arm is realistic? How far does the sub-chassis move and how long does it take to reach its new position? That gives you the speed change and duration, and therefore the pitch change can be calculated. At the moment I'm seeing the chances of an audible phenomenon as zero, so I must be missing something.
I will try to find the relevant analysis.
Cheers
Jason
>>>Eccentric pressings have orders of magnitude more 'wow' than the dynamic effect being discussed. (Yes I hear that one....)
I am not claiming it is as large, but I could hear pitch instability. Several people, two actually, that post here heard my LP12 perhaps they could comment on whether it was a good or bad one.
>>> What's puzzling me in the context of warbling is that if any turntable were going to show this effect it would be the Well Tempered (or for that matter the Rega Planar 3).
Could you explain why.
>>> It would be worth putting some numbers on the root cause before speculating about the mechanical effects and how they relate to the audible effects. Tracking weight is in the order of 2g, if the drag were a significant fraction of that then we would be able to see the end of the tone arm dipping towards the record as the drag changed, and that phenomenon hasn't been reported yet..... So perhaps 0.2g pulling on the end of arm is realistic? How far does the sub-chassis move and how long does it take to reach its new position? That gives you the speed change and duration, and therefore the pitch change can be calculated. At the moment I'm seeing the chances of an audible phenomenon as zero, so I must be missing something.
I will try to find the relevant analysis.
Cheers
Jason
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Here we go round the mulberry bush 
Seem's like this is Daja' Vu', only on a different forum what o' chaps 
Has pink fish became stale?, over 40 beaded fisherman types discussing the 'hoppiness' of hook norton ale?. Naim's finest ego's over flowing into the Sailsbury back yard?. They've all had a TT in some form or another since they knee high to a whippet, and you can't say that a LP 12 is bad without the curse of 1000 ringpieces decending on you to cast you into the 666 layers of the abyss to be tormented by winged demoness thrashing your body with barbed implements whilst langusihing in enternal damnation (hold that though ) or ex-grads seeking to torment your very ideals with pysdo-teckie mubo jumbo dressed up to sound sort real like? NO, then just a plain slagging from Bass monster DJ horn stuff, of Snidey one lines from Mick Parrys under study? or just a mauling from a slop monster loving Naim appriceator?
You too can have all this fun, just tune in tomorrow for the exciting installment of 'Clash of intellects' or 'mass love in' on planlet hifi. WM
Seem's like this is Daja' Vu', only on a different forum what o' chaps Has pink fish became stale?, over 40 beaded fisherman types discussing the 'hoppiness' of hook norton ale?. Naim's finest ego's over flowing into the Sailsbury back yard?. They've all had a TT in some form or another since they knee high to a whippet, and you can't say that a LP 12 is bad without the curse of 1000 ringpieces decending on you to cast you into the 666 layers of the abyss to be tormented by winged demoness thrashing your body with barbed implements whilst langusihing in enternal damnation (hold that though
) or ex-grads seeking to torment your very ideals with pysdo-teckie mubo jumbo dressed up to sound sort real like? NO, then just a plain slagging from Bass monster DJ horn stuff, of Snidey one lines from Mick Parrys under study? or just a mauling from a slop monster loving Naim appriceator?You too can have all this fun, just tune in tomorrow for the exciting installment of 'Clash of intellects' or 'mass love in' on planlet hifi. WM
Ladies please...!
If pitch stability is affected by drag, then its your:
main bearing to stylus distance [and horizontal compliance of materials between]
record/mat stability
arm mounting
headshell stiffness
cart mounting stability
and..#1 suspect...
the horizontal compliance of the stylus cantilever fixing
that will ALL affect pitch stability
If pitch stability is affected by drag, then its your:
main bearing to stylus distance [and horizontal compliance of materials between]
record/mat stability
arm mounting
headshell stiffness
cart mounting stability
and..#1 suspect...
the horizontal compliance of the stylus cantilever fixing
that will ALL affect pitch stability
The Devil
IHTFP
Valid criticism is absolutely fine. I know that the LP12 isn't perfect, but its speed stability seems an odd place to start off from. Paul Ranson makes a very good point, as usual.
Theories are great, but if they don't reflect audible reality, they become mildly irrelevant.
Jason, what insults? Robust yes, but I hope not insulting.
OK Jason, let's start with your forum profile. Whilst a manufacturer should declare their position in the interests of integrity, why do you feel the need to sign off as a HiFi+ reviewer at the end of each post
Vested interest allegations should not apply with scribes, unless of course, the scribe in question is on a retainer
The signature does little but suggest a certain pomposity on your part, and seems to be an attempt to establish your credentials.What I am getting at here Jason is that these shortcomings are so minor compared with those introduced elsewhere in your chain that I fail to see the point. From a musical point of view , you already accept that the LP12 is enjoyable. Pointing out it's shortcomings from a HiFi perspective is to my mind irrelevent. You mention it's lack of resolving capability. You also mention the famous mid bass hump. Have you ever thought that these two are in fact intertwined
Have you ever considered how the LP12 might sound in a room with a mild suckout at those frequencies? This is far from uncommon. These are just thoughts of course, but I feel you would be surprised by the effects atributable to adding or removing acoustic energy certain areas. I'll make you a deal if you like. As you say, I have not heard your system, so I will be happy to remedy that, whilst at the same time, measuring your room for you. You will possibly be very surprised by how much your opinions on hifi hardware are influenced by external influences that have little relevence to other happy users. Then you might stop hypothesising and get back to the music
penance
Arrogant Cock
Originally posted by wadia-miester
Here we go round the mulberry bush
LMFAO
Markus S
Trade
Merlin, if I was Jason, I would not invite you to my home, given the way you're coming on in this thread.
Paul, you are mistaken if you think that stylus drag is the only reason for speed variations. The motor itself is an important source, for example.
Paul, you are mistaken if you think that stylus drag is the only reason for speed variations. The motor itself is an important source, for example.
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You are probably right Markus, enemy at the door and all that.
Still if he want's to expand his knowledge a bit, getting an idea of how other influences are colouring his opinions somewhat, and making the minutae he hypothesises about less relevent, he could do worse than have someone in to perform some tests.
Maybe he can get someone from the trade round, then report back
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Shields up Back away from the combat zone, nice and slow, if he twitches, blow his arse to mars :laser:
Back away from the combat zone, nice and slow, if he twitches, blow his arse to mars :laser:
ReJoyce
... Jason Hector that is.
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Originally posted by merlin
>>> OK Jason, let's start with your forum profile. Whilst a manufacturer should declare their position in the interests of integrity, why do you feel the need to sign off as a HiFi+ reviewer at the end of each post
On other forums most participants prefer to have this out in the open. If it offends more than it informs I will remove it post-haste (moderator opinion useful here!). I do have a vested interest in HiFi+ and if that is discussed I think it is important that people realize who I am, perhaps I will just append the disclaimer in those situations. Some background: the first post I made to the old forum was about one of my reviews.
>>> What I am getting at here Jason is that these shortcomings are so minor compared with those introduced elsewhere in your chain that I fail to see the point. From a musical point of view , you already accept that the LP12 is enjoyable. Pointing out it's shortcomings from a HiFi perspective is to my mind irrelevent. You mention it's lack of resolving capability. You also mention the famous mid bass hump. Have you ever thought that these two are in fact intertwined
Balancing a room is as important as balancing a system. The mid bass hump of the LP12 was also very useful with the Linn cartridges of years ago which always seemed to have a reduced output in this region and the combination balanced very well. How do you separate resolution and colouration from musical appreciation? and if you can why do you run such an expensive system? In my opinion you get more enjoyment from a system that digs out and gives you more music. You can extrapolate this to say a very low resolution system with curtailed frequency response will miss certain key musical themes, whole bass lines were missing when I used Linn Kans. The whole maybe enjoyable and the system is probably cheap BUT you are not hearing all of the music and surely this is not desirable?
>>> I'll make you a deal if you like. As you say, I have not heard your system, so I will be happy to remedy that,
I am afraid that your posts on this thread, which are mainly attempts to discredit my opinions and impunge my credibility, have hardly encouraged me to invite you to my house. But if you are near south London / Surrey let me know
>>>whilst at the same time, measuring your room for you. You will possibly be very surprised by how much your opinions on hifi hardware are influenced by external influences that have little relevence to other happy users. Then you might stop hypothesising and get back to the music
I have measured the room with the current system in it and it is pretty flat. Bit too much bass boom around 60Hz but I am working on that. I have heard replicas of my system in the following rooms:
~16*18 thick stone construction 7 foot ceilings, flagged floor
~28*30 foot Breeze block construction 10 foot ceilings, concretet floor
12*24 foot all brick, wooden floor 8 foot ceilings
15narrows to 12*20, concrete floor, 8 foot ceilings
... and the system always sounded similar because the rooms were all carefully optimised to give the HiFi a chance.
Bub, you haven't insulted me, I enjoy our fencing.
W-M, this is the only place Bub and I can discuss things, he has been banned from everywhere I would be wellcome or am not banned from myself ;->
Cheers
Jason
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