Reviewing the reviewers ...

Originally posted by ReJoyce


Its a combination. The suspension causes variation in belt length and the mat slips. The pitch instability I was talking about is more due to the elasticity of the belt and the suspensions reaction. As the motor drives the platter it places tension on the belt which in turn deforms the suspension slightly. Any speed variation / motor vibration then causes the belt tension to vary and the causes the suspension to change its deformation resulting in speed changes.
Click to expand...

an obvious bit of mechanical logics ;)

Ive not heard that many decent decks, but i have listened to a few and to my mind a decent non-suspended deck on a wallshelf (well isolated wall ie external brick wall) is as good as any suspended deck (maybe even better due to the lesser amount of required setting up)
 
WM,

You mean you aren't an avid HiFi+ reader and subscriber? Call yourself interested in HiFi, pah ... ;->

I write about one article an issue for HiFi+ and some record reviews when I have a bit more time. Everything i review is chosen for me by the editor. I can make suggestions but he decides what is reviewed when. I don't write for anybody else. It takes me a lot of time to write my reviews and I haven't got much of that scarse commodity.


Cheers

Jason
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Way back in April 1983 Martin Colloms reviewed the LP12 in Hifi News. He had this to say,

"Under load the LP12 was particularly good for a belt-drive type. With -0.20% speed loss defined as the arbitrary audible threshold, the Linn comfortably bettered this at -0.13%. Other competing models have been measured in the 0.3% to 0.5% speed loss range, and audibly show mild program or dynamic wow"

So 20 years ago Martin Colloms couldn't hear this obvious deficiency. Today I can't hear it, I've been playing LPs of piano concertos for the last hour just to see. I can't detect the record slipping backwards against the platter either, this test not even requiring the use of the ears...

Maybe this deficiency is only apparent to the pitch super-perfect, or perhaps the ARO/Armageddon are factors?

Paul
 
Originally posted by ReJoyce
Everything i review is chosen for me by the editor. I can make suggestions but he decides what is reviewed when. Jason
Click to expand...

Ah so John Burns is the editor:)

It all makes sense now:)

.I do believe Martain Colloms have a really neat little psu device he loves at the moment, even took it out of his cdp and put in a pre-amp, I feel the guy has tatse (with just a hint of bais' in there )Jason, how many articles do you write for hifi+, and do you freelance for any others publications? Tone.
Click to expand...

Now come on WM, even using that "please write about my products nice mr reviewer chappy" tone ain't gonna cut the mustard old chap.

Send at least three liberators, along with a fine hamper and a bottle of VC to the address as detailed on the web site.;) All Gratis of course
 
Last edited by a moderator:
>>>Maybe this deficiency is only apparent to the pitch super-perfect, or perhaps the ARO/Armageddon are factors?

Maybe, probably not, Ittok did it as well. I can't understand why you can't hear the effect. Do you hear the effect of pressings with non-centred holes?

Cheers

Jason
 
Originally posted by ReJoyce

You can't have it both ways Bub. You think reviewers (well one at least) are deaf then you use their reviews to justify your opinions. I think there have been a number of reviewers over teh years who have criticised teh LP12's pitch stability. Thing is it does everything esle so well you ignore the problems.
Click to expand...
I don't think that you are deaf Jason, just deluded.

I don't understand how such a pitch-unstable deck has managed to build its formidable reputation by dint of having outstanding "PRAT". If it's wavering around on individual notes, there is just no way on Earth that the rhythm & timing can be spot-on at the same time.

Is there?

I think you've talked your way into a bit of a corner on this one.

[Ze leetle French duck dit: "Oui Monsieur!"]
 
Bub,

you're doing now what you have criticised others for in the past: you're putting up a theory about the LP 12's sound instead of trying it back to back with another deck, the WTR for example.

Why don't you take your deck and stand over to someone with a WTR and do a comparison?

You might even get an idea on how you can still improve your system once you have hit the ceiling with Mana.
 
Originally posted by The Devil
I don't think that you are deaf Jason, just deluded.

I don't understand how such a pitch-unstable deck has managed to build its formidable reputation by dint of having outstanding "PRAT". If it's wavering around on individual notes, there is just no way on Earth that the rhythm & timing can be spot-on at the same time.
Click to expand...


Bub,

I don't know either, but as I said they are probably being bribed in one way or another with weed or loan kit or gifts :rolleyes:. Also compared to some other decks the LP12 has less instability. BUT I can hear it's failings, it was especially obvious when compared to other decks with no suspension, not just mine. The end of side piano test was clear to me. Maybe my tolerance for pitch stability is lower? I don't know. I don't think I am in a hole. Other people have heard it as well, Markus for one, but then Mr. Ranson and you can't hear it so I am almost certainly deluded ;->

Cheers

Jason
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Markus, I'm just attempting to defend the LP12 against what I perceive as a completely 'leftfield' attack, rather similar to the outlandish theories he has about Mana stands. Nothing is perfect in life, not the LP12, and not even Jason's or your preferred turntables. They may well be better than an LP12 in certain ways, I don't know, but to suggest that the LP12 suffers from audible wow & flutter seems to me to be the, er, minority view at best. Maybe Jason's LP12 was broken in some way - who knows?

He's certainly a persuasive gentleman though: he managed to talk Alex round from being a very satisfied Mana customer ["Mana makes me cry" - quoth Alex] to being a rabid anti-Mana proselytiser like himself. The problem is that we can all be a little suggestible at times, and if a real-life hi-fi reviewer came and told me that my stands truncated certain parts of the notes, I guess I might hear that effect too.

I'm completely happy with the deck & supports I have but if that situation changes, then of course I'll audition the competition.
 
No probs, Bub. Glad to hear you're happy with your kit.

Where I do have a problem is that you seem to assert that only the deluded and the gullible can be dissatisfied with kit that you're happy with. I'm pretty certain you wouldn't be happy with my kit. Judging from my experience with some of your kit, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be happy with your system. So who cares? Just because Jason doesn't like Mana, that does not mean you're not allowed to enjoy it.

And until you've actually done the comparison, how can you be so sure that the LP 12 doesn't sound unstable compared to a Well Tempered Reference? The Linn may well have other, redeeming qualities, so you're perfectly entitled to your opinion that it is the best deck for you, overall, but its speed stability definitely can be bettered. This is measurable, btw.
 
>>> Markus, I'm just attempting to defend the LP12 against what I perceive as a completely 'leftfield' attack, rather similar to the outlandish theories he has about Mana stands. Nothing is perfect in life, not the LP12, and not even Jason's or your preferred turntables. They may well be better than an LP12 in certain ways, I don't know, but to suggest that the LP12 suffers from audible wow & flutter seems to me to be the, er, minority view at best. Maybe Jason's LP12 was broken in some way - who knows?

Bub,

<whispers>Markus agrees</whispers>

I am sure Alex will be glad to be told he is so suggestible. I have actually suggested to him that jabbing himself repeatedly in the eye with a sharp stick while listening is the only way to hear the problems with the LP12. Oh how we laughed when I visited him in hospital and he heard I was just joking. Its a lesson to us all.


>>> if a real-life hi-fi reviewer came and told me that my stands truncated certain parts of the notes, I guess I might hear that effect too.

Really? Blimey how often are you persuaded to change your windows? Actually I have a business proposition for you, it was sent to me this morning ...
------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
FOREIGN REMMITTANCE DEPT.
BANQUE INTERNATIONALE D'ABIDJAN
ABIDJAN, COTE D,IVOIRE

My Dear,

With due respect and huminity, I write to you this proposal.I am the manager of bill and exchange at the foreign remittance department of Banque Internationale d'Abidjan . I am writing following the impressive information about you through my research in internet search.In my department, we discovered an abandoned sum of U.S$11.5 USdollars (Eleven million, five hundred thousand US dollars) . In an account that belongs to one of our foreign customer who died along with his
entire family in november 1997 in a plane crash.

Since we got information about his death, we have been expecting his next of kin to come forward and claim his money because we cannot release it unless somebody applies for it as next of kin or relation to the deceased as indicated in our banking guidelines and policies but unfortunately we learnt that all his supposed next of kin or relation died along side with him at the plane
crash leaving nobody behind for the claims. It is therefore upon this discovery that I and other officials in my department now decided to make this businness proposal to you and release the money to you as the next of kin or relation to the deceased for safety and subsequent disbursement since nobody is coming forth and we dont want this money to go into the Bank treasury as unclaimed
Bill.

According to our Banking policies and guideline here which stipulates that if such money remained unclaimed after seven years, the money will automatically be transfered into the Bank treasury as unclaimed fund. The request of foreigner as next of kin in this business is occasioned by the fact that the customer was a foreigner and a Burkinabe cannot stand as next of kin to a foreigner.

We agree that 15 % of this money will be for you as foreign partner, in respect to the provision of a
foreign account,5 % will be for reimbursement of any expenses incured during the curse of the transaction and 80 % would be for me and my colleagues. There after I and my colleagues will visit your country for disbursement according to the percentages indicated.

Therefore to enable the immediate trnansfer of this fund to you as arranged, you must apply first to the bank as relation or next of kin of the deceased indicating your bank name, your bank account number, your private telephone and fax number for easier and effective communication and location where the money will be remitted .

Upon receipt of your reply, I will send to you by fax or email the text of the application. I will not fail
to bring to your notice that this transaction is hitch free and that you should not entertain any atom of
fear as all required arrangements have been made for the transfer . You should contact me immediately as soon as you receive this letter.
Trusting to hear from you immediately.

Yours faithfully,
FROM: DR.RUBEN KWASI
------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

Cheers

Jason
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bub,

just a quick one before I'll sign off for today: the speed stability limitations of the LP 12 manifest themselves not as something as mundane as wow, in the sense of wavering notes; if Linns suffered from audible wow, they wouldn't enjoy the reputation they have.

Rather, other decks are better at precisely the thing Linn waffles on about: pitch definition. Especially on bass notes, other decks allow you to better tell just where a note is pitched, and make sense of a walking bass line on a jazz or blues record, say.

Integrating the bass line into the song as a whole is something a Linn is really good at, as Jason states, which is arguably more important than sheer speed stability, and there are not many decks which surpass it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Moving to belt-drive turntables in general. It has been posted previously that some speed instability can arise from the rubber belt.

Has anyone tried a silk belt on their TT?

Steve
 
<< He's certainly a persuasive gentleman though: he managed to talk Alex round from being a very satisfied Mana customer ["Mana makes me cry" - quoth Alex] to being a rabid anti-Mana proselytiser like himself. >> Oh bub. Its the other way round actually, all your rabid posturing made me think Mana was good for about a week. And if you think I'm a 'a rabid anti-Mana proselytiser' you are stranger and more deluded than I thought.
 
Originally posted by penance
Have you seen the idea of using magnetic tape as a drive belt?
Click to expand...
Yes, I do vaguely remember reading about that. Worth a try. We're looking for something that doesn't slip, transmit or slip.
 
Originally posted by Markus Sauer
... the speed stability limitations of the LP 12 manifest themselves not as something as mundane as wow, in the sense of wavering notes; if Linns suffered from audible wow, they wouldn't enjoy the reputation they have.
Click to expand...
Jason [whispers] Markus doesn't agree after all [/whispers]
Rather, other decks are better at precisely the thing Linn waffles on about: pitch definition.
Click to expand...
This may well be true Markus, but that is not the issue. It was the warbling notes thing that I thought might be erring a little on the side of overstatement. Forum hype, doncha luv it.

Anyway, a reviewer starting a thread with this title was rather asking for a negative review himself.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top