Rollcall time: subjectivists and objectivists, the headcount

[Lt Cdr Data]

very true Steve, I like sensitive speakers, may I qualify that its important not to think just cos a speaker in a shop a/b demo IS better, because it is louder side by side. This is the natural effect, the louder one(more dbs) makes quiter ones(less dbs sensitive) sound limp and lifeless.
Of course they must be heard at the same level.
At the cheap end of the scale, ie the £200 level, this phenomenon is well known, and some makers do exploit it for an A/B demo in the shop.

 

[adam]

I chose subjectivist moderate,even though I do tend to sit on the fence and keep out of the debate.The problem I have with science is the arrogance of thier stance,the unwillingness to widen out the views,to me science is good but not the be all and end all,at most important,it's not always right,throughout history it has changed it's mind and views and found new ways of doing things,so it's not laws are not set in stone,it's done it's good and bad.

To me it's about snergy,and living with a component getting to know it,just like a person,at first you may think they are great,but after a while you see the flaws in them,or vice versa,so it takes time to know someone,the same with kit,cables and racks.

If you take the changes as subtle and not draw droping,your opinion will get greater respect,than if you pushing a product like a preacher down people throats,people will get turned off,and eventually ignore you and any other views you would have.

But to me at the end of the day does it really matter? and to me the answer is no.

 

[penance]

Subjectivist, moderate

I think the system as a whole is very important, but i do belive that facts and figures can not answer what makes a good sound, especialy as sound is a personal choice as is taste in music.
I have tried 'tweaks' thats worked and 'tweaks' that did bugger all, but maybe in someone else's system that would, who knows until it is tried.
What winds me up is when people give a blanket response of 'cables make no difference', how can you say that? they may not work in your system but may well in others. Also on the other side, how can you say that 'tweak number 598 is the dogs danglies', same reason as above.
Its the absolutism that people can show that really does get up my nose.
Its also, IMO, insulting to the believer or non-believer to throw that absolute dis-agreement at them. If they want to spend $$loads on a fossilised dragons sperm pyramid because they think it is really worth it, how exactly does it affect you? and again the reverse argument is just as valid.
If people would see tha absolute objection to someone elses opinions is just not on, the problems would end.

After all, its about the music
Aint it??

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by penance
If they want to spend $$loads on a fossilised dragons sperm pyramid because they think it is really worth it, how exactly does it affect you?

Yeah I'll bite. Where do you get these fossilised dragon sperm pyramids and how much do they cost?

Incidentally, I think that Adam has made a good point. It's all about synergy.

 

[penance]

Ah well steve, now you mention it.
I was lucky enough to discover an ancient dragon mating ground under my garden when digging the grave for my neighbour.
Seems the male dragons had, ahem, targeting problems, theres big globs of it everywhere.
PM me with how many you need, im sure we can come to some agreable arangement, speakers you make isnt it?

 

[technobear]

Hmmm! I seem to be in a class of one. Always knew I was unique

Originally posted by wadia-miester
My Amplifier was the most expensive component in my system.

Ditto

 

[PeteH]

michaelab and 7_V, thanks a lot - I was mulling over the wording for quite some time, I'm just glad I haven't come back to the thread to find 50 people voting for "other" and noone for anything else And to those of you who found yourself between categories: well, four different answers were stretching it as it was I felt, never mind twenty or whatever to cover everything. I tried to put together what I thought were fairly representative mindsets - reading how people fit between them is quite interesting in itself though.

tones, we can pencil you in as a moderate objectivist in principle I think - you can always register a new username and stick in a vote for hardcore if it bothers you

The terms "subjectivist" and "objectivist" are a little loaded but everyone here has an idea of how we use them - and "subjectivist" must be better than "snake oil zealot"

We've currently got fewer than 40 replies, but assuming it's fairly representative it looks like there's no objectivist takeover just yet (about one-third or so), so the tweak purveyors still have plenty of target audience . I'm surprised we've got so few (only 1 so far in fact) going for the first option - I'd expected considerably more than that to take the Russ Andrews line that ancillaries are everything, or at least of primary importance.

 

[bottleneck]

Im a little dissapointed to be the only person voting ''other''.

It struck me that this is not a 'objectivist' 'subjectivist' arguement.. or indeed a selection of 4 with the word 'moderate' seperating things.

Instead, I think what we have is a broad swathe of opinion that cant be so easily categorised... how would you categorised a tweaker that supports DBT?


In my own case - I think tweaks work for some, but for the most part I cant be arsed with them, finding differences very small. New bits of kit sometimes make little differences too, but sometimes massive great big whopping ones too. Its these substantial differences that I am personally prepared to shell out my hard earned to get. I go against this sometimes because hifi is my hobby, and I fancy trying something tweaky and new. I dont necessarily have high expectations - Im having fun .. what the hell?

I think blind testing is analy retentive and very sad. I dont care if its more successful or less, its anorak-like behaviour that makes me shake my head in amusement. I like hifi because its fun and because I like music. DBT is very boring and lengthy. That isnt fun!Others might like to do it, and good for them, go for it folks - whatever makes you happy.

On a final note Im GLAD that people will say '' no I think its cobblers'' as well as ''yes I thought it was great'' . If its based on personal experience, its all valid stuff..

I dont know what the above makes me, and until I get my badge, I'll stick with ''other''. Jump in, the waters lovely.

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by PeteH


The terms "subjectivist" and "objectivist" are a little loaded but everyone here has an idea of how we use them - and "subjectivist" must be better than "snake oil zealot"

"Objectivist" Xeonaphobic blue curtain & Blindfold festishised paraniod, see it's not loaded at all

 

[wolfgang]

I don't seem to have a choice. :newbie:
Most already condemn Wolfgang as a Hardcore Objectivist.

My humble understanding is closer to the following.

Limited blind testing has shown that the reported vast differences in sighted comparisons of components such as CD players and amplifiers could be influence by preconceive conjecture. This is most likely for audiophile cables since there is no proper DBT on this to show it not to be the case. The real situation will only be resolve if these initial observations are tested with further properly designed comparison by many more listeners who really have a desire to seek the answer by making sure they could listen in ways that they could not be unduly influence by personal hypothesis.

 

[GrahamN]

You missed out mine :- "Anglican - firmly committed to picking and choosing between the best and sexiest bits of all the options on offer"

As a (sometime) scientist, I in the end had to come down on the "Objectivist" side of the fence, but there is a stong subjectivist element too, in that listening is the final arbiter. I think tweaks can make some difference (otherwise I wouldn't have bought the Isolda speaker cable and Trichord block), but decent engineering of the main components reduces their effect (current system is far less susceptible than previous systems). Very nearly came down on the subjectivist side though as I've really not been arsed to do any of the objectivist stuff that I think is right!

 

[MO!]

I'd consider myself as hypocrite, two faced, changes stance depending on personal pre conceptions, and a bit of a tit all round

I'm somewhere between.

I'll write off certain things without even trying them. Perhaps not completely dismiss them having any effect, but certainly that some things can make the huge changes often claimed. And also I feel many are far too overpriced.

I feel the "can't be measured" and "why bother, jus trust your ears" is over used. And when "proof" is being asked for, it can seem a bit of a cop out!

Ultimately though. I trust my ears. I've not done much cable or such experimenting. Simply replaced the freebies with something of apparant reasonable quality at reasonable cost.

My hearing may turn out to be poor. My system may be too shit to show up the benefits/weaknesses......... but it's my ears, and my system.

I respect other peoples beliefs and findings.

But that doesn't stop me thinking they may be a little delusional sometimes. :MILD:

It's been said that to "not" hear a difference, could be imagined just as much as hearing ones which aren't there. Possibly, but I think the pressure from hifi rags, and forums like this is generally far heavier toward telling people the *should* hear them than not.

I guess if I hear it (and am sure I really heard), that's all the proof I need. But if someone else is telling me they heard it, and it's a little far fetched..... well must be bollox

 

[PeteH]

Oooh, the tension! After a great start by the subjectivists, the objectivists have been steadily plodding onward and are now within striking distance at 26-22

 

[greg]

Good comments MO!

 

[technobear]

Hmmm! Lots of votes for moderation. Seems like the fence-sitters have it. Can't believe I'm still the only one who voted for the first option. Never mind. I always have rather trod my own path (or followed my own drummer as a friend once put it)

 

[7_V]

It seems that the balance is further towards the objectivists here compared to Pink Fish.

It might be interesting to post the same forum on some of the manufacturers forums. You may need another option. To the question: "Which of the below best represents your views?", you might need:

"Herdist, hardcore: blind testing is a total irrelevance, in fact I rarely bother to listen at all when purchasing. I like whatever XXX tells me to like."

 

[7_V]

I wonder when Seventh Veil will finally make it to becoming an XXX? :sigh:

 

[Uncle Ants]

I wonder how many of us who have broadly placed ourselves in the objectivist camp have less of an objection to the concept that some tweaks may work, so much as the ludicrous prices some of the tweak peddlers charge for them?

I said it an a previous post and maybe I'm in denial, but I'd sooner have my arm lopped off than pay a four figure sum for a kettle lead - no matter what difference it might make. There is simply no way it can be justified and the mags encourage it by writing as if this kind of thing can be.

The subjectivists and objectivists can have a fun discussion about whether or not a Nordost kettle lead is better than a plain old ordinary kettle lead, but surely even the most died in the wool subjectivist would have to be insane to claim that it could be worth the money?

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by Uncle Ants
I wonder how many of us who have broadly placed ourselves in the objectivist camp have less of an objection to the concept that some tweaks may work, so much as the ludicrous prices some of the tweak peddlers charge for them?

I think you've hit on a very good point there. I think the prices charged for some cables is what may even turn some people into "militant" objectivists who see it almost as their mission in life to save others from the con

Whilst I agree with you that I would never pay a 4 figure sum for a kettle lead whatever the difference you have to remember that there are people with mind bogglingly expensive systems (over £100K) for whom spending perhaps £2K on a power lead would not be that outrageous, especially if they believed it to make a worthwhile difference. For you and me it would be like a new set of banana plugs in relative terms

Michael.

 

[HenryT]

The subjectivist moderate description is the closet fit for me, but I also agree in part to the other options presented with the absolute exception of objectivist hardcore. I'm also a believer of the philsophy that if we can't measure it, it's only because we haven't found a way of measuring it yet.

I'm a (theoretical?) believer in the idea of blind listening test, but in practice find the reality of doing it properly to be far too much hard work, not to mention impractical. It'd turn this fun hobby into a chore for me. The thing is though, I do let the external physical build quality of a piece of kit to be a very large deciding factor in my final buying decision, I'm not so bothered about aesthetics just that I'd probably choose a metal clad box over a lighter weight plastic one.

Also, I think the anicdote from 7_V about the statement from the guy behind Nottingham Analgoue is an excellent one i.e. that the better piece of kit may at first not sound immediately better or different than its less extravagently endowed stable mate, but the better piece of kit is the one that allows you to listen longer without fatigue. Hence why I'm also an advocate of extended home listening trials.

Cables, racks, mains conditioning and more esoteric tweaks are just as important as the actual components for a fully satisfying system.

This statement I really identify with, at least from my experience, but I also concur with what GrahamN said about his system being less sensitive to after market tweaks because some of the components in his system have been engineered or design sufficiently well in the first place.

Originally posted by 7_V
It seems that the balance is further towards the objectivists here compared to Pink Fish.

I've not been over there to have a look, but it doesn't surprise me. After all, the listening requirements and criteria by which the PF audience would use to judge whether a piece of kit makes the grade or not are going to be predominantly subjective i.e. access to musical appreciation first before measurements.

One thing I must say about the idea of using cables as tone controls. If that were the case then I would be using straight forward tone controls instead of cables. Cables (and all kit) have effects in the time domain, a point often missed I feel, as everyone talks about linear effects on tonal balance rather than time domain smearing, etc. I'm sure this point wouldn't be missed by most flat earthers though as they listen in a different way.