Same old cable argument again...
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3DSonics
away working hard on "it"
Hi,
That was over at diyaudio.com in a lengthy metathred of epic dimension.
Ciao T
wolfgang said:
That was over at diyaudio.com in a lengthy metathred of epic dimension.
Ciao T
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39461&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=1
Is this the right thread? Need to make a cup of coffee first but if it is as interesting as you suggested I should be able to zip thro it later in the night when I am wake.
Is this the right thread? Need to make a cup of coffee first but if it is as interesting as you suggested I should be able to zip thro it later in the night when I am wake.
Err. I think so.
Such that one would expect them to sound the same using boring old conventional criteria. AFAIK nobody has ever been able to distinguish cables that don't affect the frequency response or level in a listening test. Thorsten can invent all sorts of pseudo physics but that remains the case.
AFAIK the James Randi offer of a million dollars to anyone who can hear the effect of a Shakti stone placed near their equipment still stands. He certainly hasn't altered his web site. The DIYAudio thread is at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39461
Paul
Are you implying that all cables are made the same, therefore they all sound the same?Paul Ranson said:
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It's rare that I get involved in cable arguments as I find it all a bit agressive but this one annoyed me.
I have a perfectly decent system, no it's not top of the high end but by most standards it's good enough. It is sufficently revealing to clearly show differences between recordings and has consistently improved as I've upgraded. I do not have golden ears but have "exceptional" hearing according to my doctor having had a hearing check in the last year and my ears syringed. I felt I had to write all that just to cover my arse for what I'm about to say.
Cables are a major rip off.
I worked in a retail hifi outlet for a couple of years whilst deciding what to do for a career proper and we tested loads, blind, sighted, double blind... name it..We also tried stuff from £10 all the way up to some at £1000, never did anyone recognise the "better cables" at anything higher than what you'd expect through chance alone and I have yet to see it PROVEN that certain cables sound better. I have no doubt that by using cables with tricky electrical properties the sound of a system can be altered but this is the same as a tone control to my mind.
I totally agree that there are differences between electrically different cables but "improvements" are harder to prove.
It has been my experience that people who immediately claim to hear massive and immediate differences are talking out of their pipes. Also and this is what annoyed me, anyone who doesn't is derided as having poor hearing, a shite system or both. Well bollocks...Frankly my system is good enough that I don't listen to it, I listen to my music instead and it's rare that I find a problem perhaps because I'm not listening for one. Sure I could upgrade but I wouldn't do it with cables.
I find that the sheep that feel cables are the way forward are generally so into hifi that they will believe and buy almost anything in pursuit of the perfect sound, me I'd rather buy records after all I stand a better chance of finding perfection there than in a poxy cable.
Just one final point the mark up on the most popular cable make we sold was over 300% so put that in your pipe and smoke it.
I have a perfectly decent system, no it's not top of the high end but by most standards it's good enough. It is sufficently revealing to clearly show differences between recordings and has consistently improved as I've upgraded. I do not have golden ears but have "exceptional" hearing according to my doctor having had a hearing check in the last year and my ears syringed. I felt I had to write all that just to cover my arse for what I'm about to say.
Cables are a major rip off.
I worked in a retail hifi outlet for a couple of years whilst deciding what to do for a career proper and we tested loads, blind, sighted, double blind... name it..We also tried stuff from £10 all the way up to some at £1000, never did anyone recognise the "better cables" at anything higher than what you'd expect through chance alone and I have yet to see it PROVEN that certain cables sound better. I have no doubt that by using cables with tricky electrical properties the sound of a system can be altered but this is the same as a tone control to my mind.
I totally agree that there are differences between electrically different cables but "improvements" are harder to prove.
It has been my experience that people who immediately claim to hear massive and immediate differences are talking out of their pipes. Also and this is what annoyed me, anyone who doesn't is derided as having poor hearing, a shite system or both. Well bollocks...Frankly my system is good enough that I don't listen to it, I listen to my music instead and it's rare that I find a problem perhaps because I'm not listening for one. Sure I could upgrade but I wouldn't do it with cables.
I find that the sheep that feel cables are the way forward are generally so into hifi that they will believe and buy almost anything in pursuit of the perfect sound, me I'd rather buy records after all I stand a better chance of finding perfection there than in a poxy cable.
Just one final point the mark up on the most popular cable make we sold was over 300% so put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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michaelab
desafinado
For those interested in reading the diyAudio.com thread you might like to know that Thorsten (3DSonics here) is "Kuei Yang Wang" on that forum 
Also, that thread has well over 1000 posts
Joolsburger - excellent post!
Michael.
Also, that thread has well over 1000 posts
Joolsburger - excellent post!
Michael.
The Devil
IHTFP
Does he use the same sneering, jeering, condescending & arrogant posting style there, too? I ask because I can't be bothered to follow the link.
michaelab
desafinado
From my brief look at the first couple of pages of the thread, yes, he does.
Do not confuse the ability of the ears to react to sound with the brain's ability to interpret those sounds. It is highly possible for you to hear a sound but not register it. Just because you don't hear a difference doesn't mean one isn't present. This is why it is useful to have some form of imperically measured result rather than relying purely on "experience". I suspect this lies at the heart of many of the "arguments" occuring in this and similar threads.Joolsburger said:
tones
compulsive cantater
greg said:
Greetings from the depths of darkest Cincinnati. I'm just having a brief look between meetings, and I probably won't be back to this thead again, but to answer your question, Greg, no, because there is no contradiction. I believe the whole cable business to be a myth. I don't discount that there may be minor differences between some cables and others, depending on construction, but I simply don't believe the "night and day" stories I hear. I therefore regard the whole business as a myth, and I expect one day that someone will be honest enough to expose it for the fraud that it is. My experience in trying out cables has borne this out.
However, if people believe in cables, I am happy for them to do so. In the end, it matters not one iota whether the difference was therein reality or only as a construct of the listener's imagination. If they heard it, they heard it, and if they're happy with that, fine by me. To paraphrase the old children's rhyme:
The other day in listening chair
I heard a sound that wasn't there
I heard another one today
I'm awfully glad they've come to stay.
My view is summed up nicely by a note to me from John Borwick, former Audio Editor of "Gramophone":
"To us, one good quality cable sounds very much like another. However, I would never dissuade an enthusiast from giving his super system a birthday present, if paying over the odds makes him feel better".
Of course I borrowed some cables just for a laugh because I was a "disbeliever". I tried for example very expensive Siltech and Transparant cables and Kimber PBJ and Silver Streak. I think there are small differences between cables but the PBJ are very good for the money. The Siltech cable (two or three thousand) was may be subjective a bit better. I did not like the Transparant or the Silver Streak.
Carl
Carl
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Cables make a difference. I am convinced.
But I think we argue about the wrong thing in these cable debates.
I think the real argument should be over pricing.
Cable prices are too high and some of them just take the piss.
Manufacturers will try and try to convince me but I just laugh out loud in their faces.
While cables certainly make a difference, I believ it is often no more than a set of properties encouraging or discouraging aspects of the equipments sound that may make the overall effect better, or worse. I am convinced that a relatively cheap cable can have a similar effect as another particular cable that costs a lot. The trouble is, KNOWING which cheap ones happen to influence things similarly. There are hundreds on the market so in reality you are not really going to find out. You could if you are a millionaire, or a dealer, in which case you can have easy access to many to experiment with. But obviously if you can afford it or get them cheap in the first place you don't have to search around do you. Just use that super cable and get on with it then. But for most of us the search remains ellusive.
So, to get good cables, all I can suggest is get a short, short-list of some good cables that a dealer happens to stock and try them. Resign yourself to paying what the reality of that cable is, if you can be moved to do it. But do it knowing that you probably could have got the same result with a different cable at a much lower price, whatever it is and you won't ever know.
I wish cables were not so expensive. Its a situation we have let creep up on us over the years. Equipment manufacturers have gone along with it, unfortunately. I would like to know what cross relationships in ownership exist between the companies. Magazines like it, because it gives their experts something else to wax lyrical about and they like the regular glossy ads for them ( belief in a cable brand is more a faith thing than a demo'd thing usually ). Dealers get nice margins on cables and its another source of income from customers on their "upgrade paths", further encouraged by the magazines. Bi-wiring? Oh God don't get me started on that !
Perhaps another solution is to buy blind but used, like on Ebay or HiFiForSale.com. If you don't think it works you can always shift it on at a similar price. I think I'll do that. I'll get me some Chord cables for my Exposure gear and maybe get them reterminated. I'll see. There's nothing wrong with my Absolute Sounds Swiss Wire, is there? Is there?
But I think we argue about the wrong thing in these cable debates.
I think the real argument should be over pricing.
Cable prices are too high and some of them just take the piss.
Manufacturers will try and try to convince me but I just laugh out loud in their faces.
While cables certainly make a difference, I believ it is often no more than a set of properties encouraging or discouraging aspects of the equipments sound that may make the overall effect better, or worse. I am convinced that a relatively cheap cable can have a similar effect as another particular cable that costs a lot. The trouble is, KNOWING which cheap ones happen to influence things similarly. There are hundreds on the market so in reality you are not really going to find out. You could if you are a millionaire, or a dealer, in which case you can have easy access to many to experiment with. But obviously if you can afford it or get them cheap in the first place you don't have to search around do you. Just use that super cable and get on with it then. But for most of us the search remains ellusive.
So, to get good cables, all I can suggest is get a short, short-list of some good cables that a dealer happens to stock and try them. Resign yourself to paying what the reality of that cable is, if you can be moved to do it. But do it knowing that you probably could have got the same result with a different cable at a much lower price, whatever it is and you won't ever know.
I wish cables were not so expensive. Its a situation we have let creep up on us over the years. Equipment manufacturers have gone along with it, unfortunately. I would like to know what cross relationships in ownership exist between the companies. Magazines like it, because it gives their experts something else to wax lyrical about and they like the regular glossy ads for them ( belief in a cable brand is more a faith thing than a demo'd thing usually ). Dealers get nice margins on cables and its another source of income from customers on their "upgrade paths", further encouraged by the magazines. Bi-wiring? Oh God don't get me started on that !
Perhaps another solution is to buy blind but used, like on Ebay or HiFiForSale.com. If you don't think it works you can always shift it on at a similar price. I think I'll do that. I'll get me some Chord cables for my Exposure gear and maybe get them reterminated. I'll see. There's nothing wrong with my Absolute Sounds Swiss Wire, is there? Is there?
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I'm implying that nobody has yet been able to hear a difference between cables that don't mess with the frequency response or level of the signal. If you know of an exception I'm very interested.
Paul
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Perception is so often cited in these discussions. Is said to be true that a percieved difference is as valid as a real difference.
However;
Perception is easy to change through the use of a number of fairly easy techniques, any sales, marketing bod or politician can demonstrate this. It seems to me that over the last 12-15 years cables have gone from being viewed with a fair degree of scepticism to being the accepted norm. I however do not accept this and my reason is simple, there has been no proof. The press, the believers and dealers have all contributed to this change in perception but the fact still remains that electrically similar cables will offer similar (if not the same) sound.
I congratulate naim for bucking this trend and sticking to their guns I also know a number of dealers who have accepted my polite refusal of additional upgraded cabling with good grace and a wry smile.
I await the inevitable calls of deafness/lack of transparency and so on.
My final comment is a so called super cable lets say 250 pounds equals at least 15 albums guess what I'd buy!!
However;
Perception is easy to change through the use of a number of fairly easy techniques, any sales, marketing bod or politician can demonstrate this. It seems to me that over the last 12-15 years cables have gone from being viewed with a fair degree of scepticism to being the accepted norm. I however do not accept this and my reason is simple, there has been no proof. The press, the believers and dealers have all contributed to this change in perception but the fact still remains that electrically similar cables will offer similar (if not the same) sound.
I congratulate naim for bucking this trend and sticking to their guns I also know a number of dealers who have accepted my polite refusal of additional upgraded cabling with good grace and a wry smile.
I await the inevitable calls of deafness/lack of transparency and so on.
My final comment is a so called super cable lets say 250 pounds equals at least 15 albums guess what I'd buy!!
greg
Its a G thing
So silver wire sounds the same as copper as silver coated copper, etc? I'm not talking one brand or another or high cost versus low cost. Just interested if you hear no differences between these materials.Paul Ranson said:
I'm not suggesting anything because I don't have enough information. I was trying to fathom out the arguments. As I said earlier, in this argument percecption and quantifiable reaction are often confused which makes any logical conclusion difficult.Paul Ranson said:
If I read your comments correctly you are saying if cable a) is made the same way as cable b) there will be no difference in the the measured outcome. If however cable b) is designed to limit frequency response or similar then there may be a measurable difference. If that premise is correct then we have to ask ourselves
a) are all cables built to give exactly the same level of signal
b) can some form of altering the frequency response be perceived as beneficial.
Whether some listeners perceive the difference and some don't is surely irrelevant as human perception is always highly sunjective and unreliable.
FWIW I've heard differences between cables but they have never been enough for me to be convinced of their worth. Nor do I have enough physics to explain what is happening.
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
I still remember Hippy's response to a forum post years ago...
Q ''Where is the best place to put my interconnect?"
A "ebay"
Q ''Where is the best place to put my interconnect?"
A "ebay"
Too much resistance, inductance or capacitance, usually.
Probably. I've never tried it.
Paul
