Same old cable argument again...

Cables= Rip off

It's true that any company looks to profit from their efforts but most of them do not work at the 300% profit margins that were my experiences with selling cables.

I do not claim for one minute that all cables sound the same but I DO claim that any cable with a fairly normal set of electrical characteristics will sound much the same as another. Why not just get tone controls if you seek to change the sound of your hifi by manipulating cable types?

As for Silver vs Copper I changed from VDH CS122 to Furukawa PCOCC speaker cable one's silver or something the other is copper, made not the slightest difference sound wise IMHO although as the Furukawa was longer it meant I could put my speakers where I wanted, now that improved the sound no end!

I see this thread has gone exactly where anyone would have expected ... Cables make a difference or not, oh yes they do, oh no they dont etc etc .

Assuming that most of us here are more "into" hifi than Jo public and that all of us would easily notice a change of cartridge for example it seems proof of the pudding is the fact that we don't agree on cables. If they were capable of such night and day differences surely we'd all hear it immediately or are the believers really saying that the rest of us are deaf?

I think that what's going on here is a simple case of wishful thinking. After all wouldn't it be great if a 100 pound interconnect could really "improve" your system. I just don't believe it!

 

Hi,

No-one stops you from making interconnects. But observe that copper oxide is a semi-conductor and silver oxide is merely a bad conductor. Signal levels in interconnects are low and it has been shown measurable levels of nonlinear distortion that are at least potentially audible are present with certain types of cables (more precisely wires), so again we have a real effect that can certainly reach audibility.

Sorry, it is not, it is merely an attempt to state basic statistic concepts without extensive statistical verbiage.

It is insofar as it determines at which frequencies we start to have material RFI/EMI noise pickup possibilities etc and other "secondary" and "tertiary" items which make themselves known by interaction with the attached equipment.

No, nut just RLC, but the whole of the electrical parameters, which inturn are merely a reflection in terms of specific narrowly defined measurements of a rather more complex real world process....

Just for fun, I hope everyone is aware that at any extent purely fictious electrons actually do not travel along the cable at all, but that our signal travels effectively as EM field oustide the actual conductor? The speed of electron migration in a metallic conductor is actually very slow, by far too slow to support any signal....

Of course, to a closed mind this is all more gobbledegook, as cables have been predetermined to make no difference whatsoever anyway, INNIT?

Ciao T

 

I don't think I've ever been bored enough to post on a cable thread, but there's always a first time....

First of all, I do believe in some "hi-fi hocus-pocus", specifically with regard to vibration isolation. I have heard audible, repeatable benefits in using isolation tables under turntables. This practise would have been considered ridiculous a few decades ago, yet is de rigueur these days.

I go to great lengths to isolate components from vibration and make sure my speakers and their stands are massive, rigid and firmly attached to one-another (and the floor), because in my system, it offers audible benefits.

With regards to cables, I am absolutely certain that using the lowest-quality cabling has a detrimental effect on audio quality. I once exchanged the bell-wire used in my parent's (very cheap & nasty) system for some of my spare Silver Anniversary and there was an audible improvement in just about every department.

I'll make the brave assertion that I could confidently tell the difference between the two cables, with very high consistency, such is the difference in bass and clarity between the two.

Consequently, this along with other examples, have led me to believe a certain degree of expenditure is necessary to ensure the cable used in my system meets minimum, common-sense, electrical & construction standards.

Simply put, it should have the lowest possible signal impedance, maximum EMI & RFI rejection and exhibit electrical consistency across the length of the cable. Terminations & soldering should maximise contact area and should have the same impedance as the cable itself.

Sound quality aside, the sheath should be hard-wearing enough to protect the conductors for twenty years, be well-terminated enough to withstand thousands of plugging & unpluggings (!) and should offer another layer of protection from EMI & RFI.

Some of you may consider some of the above characteristics spurious and unnecessary, some of you may express concern at the lack of "quantum-adjusted phase-pulse dielectric material".

Whatever. I'm just want a cable that exhibits the above characteristics. No more, no less. I believe such cable is available for less than £10 per metre, and probably much, much less (though there's nothing wrong with spending a small amount to make it aesthetically appealing. It will be on view in the lounge after all!)

I'm not saying the above characteristics guarantees better sound quality, or will offer an "improved" sound in 100% of hi-fi systems. To me, it simply represents a common-sense, minimum standard, based on personal observations and my knowledge & understanding of electrical engineering.

Spending hundreds of pounds per metre for over-engineered cable, whose basis in science (and audibility) is patchy at best, seems ridiculous to me.

Even if there is an audible "improvement" (improvement in brackets, because IME a lot of Nordorst lovers mistake a different sound for an improved sound), it is usually so slight and inconsistent, that its alleged benefits should be discounted immediately.

However, it does make me angry when people claim there is no audible difference whatsoever between cables. Their ignorance points to a lack of open minded-ness about many other aspects of hi-fi and music reproduction generally.

I think you'll find almost every single nay-sayer would feel deeply uncomfortable about being forced to introduce bell-wire cabling into their beloved systems (I'm thinking it would be fun to do so!).

Another implicit contradiction of these nay-sayers, is that they'll spend thousands on an amplifier that employs (for example) silver-plated internal wiring and gold-plated terminals and wax lyrical about its performance (a large portion of which is probably due to quality conductors in the wiring & signal paths), and yet completely dismiss the notion that equivalent speaker cable has NO audible effect!!

I certainly haven't met any audiophile brave enough to swallow their words in this regard and actually exchange their QED for bell-wire

DT

P.S. My speaker cable cost £4 per metre and my RCA interconnects cost between £15-25. Ironically, I do not believe my speaker cable meets my own minimum electrical standard (its plastic sheath does not maximise EMI/RFI rejection) so I might have to think about changing it for one that does!! For under £10pm of course

 

Hi,

That is true. Most industries would not bother to work for such paltry markups.

Have you ever asked yourself of the actual cost (as in the cost of making it) of a Brandname Packet of Washing powder?

Of a Brandname pair of sneaker made by semi-slave labour by children in the far east?

Of a can of a Brandname Softdrink?

Of a Gallon of Petrol?

Of a CD?

Of a DVD?

Of a Car?

Of a gramm of Skunk?

I do not read you constantly compaining off rippoff there, even though the markups in percent are much, much higher.

Lets be clear, any complaints about pricing in High End are simply sour grapes, based on the view that someone else is making money you feel they should not and so it becomes a convenient stick to beat the topic to death with, irregardless of the fact that the ripoff is actually fairly modest compared to the greater ones you regulary put up with.

I believe this is a typhical case of straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel. But most crucially, it is completely irelevant to the discourse and dispute about the possibility of audibility of different cables, it does not belong into the thread, it belongs into a "everything is too expensive and I'm constantly being ripped off" thread where those who have too much love of money can diss endlessly all those who relieve of said paramour.

So, if you want to complain about others making money, do it, don't dress it up in pseudoscientifical mumbo jumbo, data from poorely conducted test and so on, stop beating around the bush and say it like it is. :MILD:

Meanwhile in the thread that interrests me we can look further what may explain the empirically observed differences, what tests are apropriate to quantify this difference and indeed to establish reliably if such a difference exists in absolute reality or if it is merely a result of mass delusion and we can do so sensibly, dispassionatly and without constantly people moaning about "the prices", "the ripoff" and so on.

Anyway, my few pence here and note the smilies.

Ciao T

 

Ah I see a lot of those cases.

Just to clarify, are you saying that it is impossible to make electrically identical cables without using identical raw components?

This appears to be the case, as you claim that any change in say materials will lead to a change elsewhere which will affect the measured performance.

 

That is true. Most industries would not bother to work for such paltry markups.

Have you ever asked yourself of the actual cost (as in the cost of making it) of a Brandname Packet of Washing powder?

Lots of times but then washing powder has the benefit of cleaning my clothes.

Of a Brandname pair of sneaker made by semi-slave labour by children in the far east?

Yeah but if they are comfortable and look good

Of a can of a Brandname Softdrink?

Quenches my thirst and tastes good

Of a Gallon of Petrol?

Makes my car go but don't get me started.

Of a CD? I don't often buy these

Of a DVD? I never buy these!

Of a Car? Yeah but gets you from a to b etc etc

Of a gramm of Skunk? Obviously worth every penny


See the theme, these things have VALUE which makes them worth buying whereas cables are Bunk and therefore once you've hit about 2 quid a meter everything above this is a rip. It's not about making money it's about being an arse and ripping of the believers.

Let me say that again ..Cables are BUNK.

Seriously if you can double blind a bit of van damme stuff at a 1.50 and spot the difference between it and some cs122 I'd be amazed and convinced! I have nothing against money after all I'm an IT recruitment consultant but even I wouldn't have the neck to punt cable!!

 

You smoke a lot of skunk then do you?

Can you explain how that helps you to make rational judgements?

Fancy trainers are only a "value" if the wearer of said shoes is a poseur.

How do you know brandname washing powder is any better than soap suds?

DVD? Don't know what you are missing - well you wouldn't with all that skunk stuck in your brain would you?

Sorry, only joking and don't wish to appear offensive.

 

Perish the thought Mike

 

I'm not offended or sponge brained!!!

My point is value and cost are two very different things. However I concede that as a hardened cynic I do look for the worst in people!!

Also your right about the trainers! Again, it's the devious convincing the dim.

 

Hi,

Yes, if you make a cable, otherwise identical, but one with a stranded center conductor and the other with a solid one, or one with a solid PE insulator and the other with foamed PTFE you will have a cable that has masurably different properties. They may or may not be relevant for audio and may and may or not result in observable errors, but if you wish state "electrically identical cables" you are basically constrained to choose identical materials for conductors and insulators (or at least materials with identical behaviour in teh critical areas) and make them identical in terms of dimensions within a fairly narrow tolerance.

As a result a supposed interchangable cable according to a certain spec (eg RG-214/MIL) may in fact behave more or less subtely different if one manufatcurer choose to use foamed dielectric and another solid or if one choose a foil & braid or even braided foil shield and the other basket weave braid.

I choose the RG-214/MIL as there is the generic RG-214 you find at maplin or RS which is dual basket weave silver plated braid and 7 X 0.5mm silverplated copper center, soldi PE insulation and PVC Jacket (comes well recommended as interconnect cable BTW, if you like to have a slightly warmed up but clean and resolved sound and is not excessively expensive) .

And there is one company in the US that makes the same cable (sadly on the "buy a 1000' drum or we don't do business with you) with foamed PTFE and insulator, dual layer braided silverplated copper foil and PTFE jacket. The "premium" RG-214 has significant improvements on the standard RG-214 which lead to measurable difference. Cost is horrific, you have to be the US DOD to afford that stuff!!!!

Note, the above cable is a standard generic RF cable and a "premium grade" variant, neither is made or marketed for the Audio sector.

Ciao T

 

Hi,

Correction, they have TO YOU a PERCIEVED VALUE that makes them worth buying. You may argue the Premium washing powder does not get your close any cleaner than the cheapest no-name brand and the cheapest no-name sneakers will be likely as comfortable and so on.

A lot there is at least as much bunk as any claims for HiFi cables, but do you complain about the "Whiter than White" Whites in Cleaner Close? The "taste you only get from genuine brown coloured sweet fizzy water" and so on?

At any extent, there are people to whom a certain cable has a certain percieved value.

As for DBT's, get off it already, I'm getting seriously tired of that, do a search on DBT OR ABX and my handle here on zerogain, no need for myself to repeat what I already typed on that subject.

Ciao T

 

I don't think electrons are 'fictious', drift velocity is hardly surprising, and em theory isn't new. So what's your point?

You can bring up all sorts of physical theory, relevant or not, and dissemble till the cows come home. The bottom line is 'can you hear a difference'. And any test other than a listening test is impossibly flawed. Yet listening tests are invalid because they don't produce the right results. I think you're way to invested in mysticism and its commercial exploitation.

Paul

 

Hi,

You may believe whatever ficticious enteties you wish to believe in. Theories as noted are long understood.

I have done blind listening tests. Given the limited dataset they produce I am sure that there is an audible difference if I allow a 20% chance of accepting the Thesis "all cables sound the same" in error and equally I allow a 20% chance of rejecting the thesis "cables sound difference" in error.

From my statistics classes I know that I need much more data if I wish to reduce my chance of type A errors and type B errors to much less, such as a 5% certainty. For my own purposes I find the data and certainties sufficient and attainable. I have no desire to go further for my OWN use.

Ciao T

 

When will people realise that we are all made different.
Some can hear things that other cant !
And Hearing is not merely receiving sounds in your ear!!
It also has to be perceived by the brain.
And people perceive the quality of a sound differently.
A type of treble may excite some, but depress others.
Hearing the quality of a sound will therefore always be a matter of opinion!
Why get angry about it?
So if someone posted the chord odyssey to be "revealing" dont blame him, but have a demo of the same, and if you dont perceive a difference, save yourself some cash!
Others with hearing similiar to the poster may on the other hand benefit.
Hi-Fi is a mixed world and not a mixed-up one.

 

Hi,

I made similar remarks (which I saw prudent to split from this thread) here:

Weltanschaung and HiFi (warning, contentious and wordy)

Ciao T

 

3DSonics - Funny, similar thoughts were going across my mind whilst you were already expressing yours! Maybe I heard you thinking?
Telepathy! And without any cables or interconnects either!!

 

Of course we know this could be the reason. This is a hifi forum and we like to discuss about our toys. Some are only concern about which toys sound good and which don't sound as good. Some of us like also happen wish to know why they sound better. What is the mechanism? Could these be achieve with DIY solution? Some are motivated by the potential saving, some might just like to do built something with their hands. Some of us (like me for example) sometimes wonder if the claimed audible differences between cables and perhaps most of our other expensive toys are simply wishful thinking. Nothing wrong with asking is it?

 

some of us wonder if others ever actually listen to music

 

DT hears the deafening sound of nails being hit on the head.....

 

some of us wonder if others can do anything other than make smart arse comments