Julian2002, don't worry about measurements. As PeteH said, virtually all cables will give a (near enough) flat frequency response. Believers claim they can hear differences in cables that are not due to measurable differences in frequency response. E.g. many claim they can hear differences between copper and silver cables.
Some sense creeping into the hifi press at last?
- Thread starter michaelab
- Start date
Level matching shouldn't be necessary with cables, it's a very odd cable that attenuates without intending to.The performance of such a cable is likely to be very installation dependent, but the aberrations it causes will be unsurprising.
For an analogy say you go to demo a NAP180 against a NAP250. If the dealer turned the volume up slightly when the NAP250 was playing would you be able to conclude that the amp was better because of its better PSU arrangement?
Paul
For an analogy say you go to demo a NAP180 against a NAP250. If the dealer turned the volume up slightly when the NAP250 was playing would you be able to conclude that the amp was better because of its better PSU arrangement?
Paul
julian2002
Muper Soderator
paul,
i know what you mean but if the 250 played louder at a given volume setting (without moving the dial) than the 180 i'd certainly want to know about it. if the dealer level matched them i'd be none the wiser (assuming there was a difference in volume between the 180 and 250 which i don't think there is- but for the purposes of example...)
cheers
julian
i know what you mean but if the 250 played louder at a given volume setting (without moving the dial) than the 180 i'd certainly want to know about it. if the dealer level matched them i'd be none the wiser (assuming there was a difference in volume between the 180 and 250 which i don't think there is- but for the purposes of example...)
cheers
julian
michaelab
desafinado
Absolutely not the case! And there lies the nub of the whole argument. People clearly frequently express a preference (and therefore believe they here a difference) when, in DBT conditions they are unable to hear any difference and so have no basis on which to form a sonic preference.julian2002 said:
Michael.
michaelab
desafinado
But surely it's of minimal importance whether the 250 plays "louder" than the 180 for a given volume setting. If that was the only difference then everyone would just buy the (cheaper) 180 and turn up the volume a bit.julian2002 said:
What people are looking for is sonic differences other than absolute volume level and you can only assess those in a level matched test.
Michael.
julian2002
Muper Soderator
michael,
you seem to be putting the cart before the horse here.
the original point was using dbt to determine a preference.
if i was dbting and heard a difference - even if that difference was slight cable induced attenuation - then i would be able to identify it and express a preference. if that were the only difference between the 2 cables and they were level matched then they could not be differenciated even though they displayed different characteristics. the test would have masked these differences - this is what i have an objection to - massaging the test to confirm a point of view. it's like saying you've got to test 2 light bulbs to see which one you can read best with but then using a dimmer switch to bring a 100 watt bulb down to the level of a 10 watt night light - what's the point?
as the 180 / 250 thing was an example (and not even mine) it only served to make a point (which it seems to have failed at).
cheers
julian
you seem to be putting the cart before the horse here.
the original point was using dbt to determine a preference.
if i was dbting and heard a difference - even if that difference was slight cable induced attenuation - then i would be able to identify it and express a preference. if that were the only difference between the 2 cables and they were level matched then they could not be differenciated even though they displayed different characteristics. the test would have masked these differences - this is what i have an objection to - massaging the test to confirm a point of view. it's like saying you've got to test 2 light bulbs to see which one you can read best with but then using a dimmer switch to bring a 100 watt bulb down to the level of a 10 watt night light - what's the point?
as the 180 / 250 thing was an example (and not even mine) it only served to make a point (which it seems to have failed at).
cheers
julian
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Ok let us Theorise here (Or not as the case may be?), Lets say I have 5 pieces of wire say 1mm in o/d all using the same quality and make dielectric for arguements sake say 35Kv ptfe tubing (wall thickness .45mm), all with identical LRC values & even on a full S/A (full 20<>20Kz test tone sweep) trace you can't tell em apart. Anyone here want to tell me what they feel the results are?
You see if all amps and cdp's sound the same, and wires make No difference at all, then Bub's cheapy marantz test he does on his mana where he says the sound the same, so (In theroy) apply to all systems (give or take the room variants)
So why arn't they so many almost indentical sounding systems out there?
Maybe we all should go over to 10mm T&E mains leads and speaker cables, prehaps lets turn this around, Mike B/Not a clue/Pete H, should all try these for one month, get Iaasc or a neutral chap to make em, see at the end of the test if they wish to keep them over there current cables, I mean if Quad says thats all you need then you guys could show us the way.
You see if all amps and cdp's sound the same, and wires make No difference at all, then Bub's cheapy marantz test he does on his mana where he says the sound the same, so (In theroy) apply to all systems (give or take the room variants)
So why arn't they so many almost indentical sounding systems out there?
Maybe we all should go over to 10mm T&E mains leads and speaker cables, prehaps lets turn this around, Mike B/Not a clue/Pete H, should all try these for one month, get Iaasc or a neutral chap to make em, see at the end of the test if they wish to keep them over there current cables, I mean if Quad says thats all you need then you guys could show us the way.
Julian, you don't need a blind test, or any form of listening test, to determine that a cable attenuates or that two amps have different gains. But such a difference will swamp any other differences in a blind listening test. So if you don't compensate for them you're not actually judging the equipment on its aural merits.
WM, if you could take your 5 pieces of wire that are constructed similarly and measure similarly and then distinguish them by ear under blind conditions you'd have a startling result and probably qualify for James Randi's million.
It will be interesting to hear about the Hifi Plus result.
Paul
WM, if you could take your 5 pieces of wire that are constructed similarly and measure similarly and then distinguish them by ear under blind conditions you'd have a startling result and probably qualify for James Randi's million.
It will be interesting to hear about the Hifi Plus result.
Paul
julian2002
Muper Soderator
but surely the point of seeing if there are any differences is to see if there are ANY differences - skewing the test to eliminate a difference when that is the whole point of the exercise sureley defeats the purpose of the test.
all i'm saying is that i disagree with some of the methodology espoused by some here and there seems to be some uncertainty as to what constitutes a difference. thus i return to my origional point of caveats creeping out of the woodwork.
cheers
julian
all i'm saying is that i disagree with some of the methodology espoused by some here and there seems to be some uncertainty as to what constitutes a difference. thus i return to my origional point of caveats creeping out of the woodwork.
cheers
julian
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
I'm not sure what Quad are saying these days but I remember their Peter Walker inspired adverts of the seventies when they said that the perfect amplifier would be a straight wire with gain. The adverts then went on to say that actually even a straight wire wasn't perfect because it has capacitance, inductance, etc.wadia-miester said:
Even stranger to me than the idea that equally measuring cables should sound different to each other (whether they do or don't) is the idea that we've got yet another thread on the forum discussing it.
Here's a question...
Has anyone - cable differentiators or non differentiators - ever had his opinion swayed by anything posted on one of these threads?
But Julian, if the difference is simply attenuation, why not turn the volume up?
If the difference is attenuation of certain frequencies why not use EQ or tone controls?
Oh I forgot! The flatties expelled them just about the same time cables became a hot topic
No tone controls and sounding bright? Buy some cables! Avoid the dreaded EQ! Buy copper instead!
The same people who now poopoo the cable debates were the ones that opened up the issue in the first place. they have a lot to answer for.
If the difference is attenuation of certain frequencies why not use EQ or tone controls?
Oh I forgot! The flatties expelled them just about the same time cables became a hot topic
No tone controls and sounding bright? Buy some cables! Avoid the dreaded EQ! Buy copper instead!The same people who now poopoo the cable debates were the ones that opened up the issue in the first place. they have a lot to answer for.
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
I have only one point to make here.
The original post by John Crabbe indicated that for less than 1 pound a metre it is perfectly feasable to make and sell audio cable which measures well in all important areas.
I cannot see how a rebuff to this is - ''take a variety of cables which may or may not measure well, may or may not provide a flat response, may or may not have a suitable inductance/capacitance etc, may or may not even be fit for purpose and see if you can hear a difference using DBT.. and if you can then clearly the cable market is justified'' ?!?!?!?!?!
Surely the arguement isnt whether its feasable to make cables sound different to each other, but whether you've altered measurable parameters and skewed your response.
I'll eat my own dumps if hifi+ gives measured performances for the cables on test and if the measurments are similar.
I feel many in the audio community are hood-winked by cable manufacturers - persuaded that an audible difference is an audible gain - when really its just a difference.
Roll on my 75p per metre interconnects from Joel.
Chris
The original post by John Crabbe indicated that for less than 1 pound a metre it is perfectly feasable to make and sell audio cable which measures well in all important areas.
I cannot see how a rebuff to this is - ''take a variety of cables which may or may not measure well, may or may not provide a flat response, may or may not have a suitable inductance/capacitance etc, may or may not even be fit for purpose and see if you can hear a difference using DBT.. and if you can then clearly the cable market is justified'' ?!?!?!?!?!
Surely the arguement isnt whether its feasable to make cables sound different to each other, but whether you've altered measurable parameters and skewed your response.
I'll eat my own dumps if hifi+ gives measured performances for the cables on test and if the measurments are similar.
I feel many in the audio community are hood-winked by cable manufacturers - persuaded that an audible difference is an audible gain - when really its just a difference.
Roll on my 75p per metre interconnects from Joel.
Chris
julian2002
Muper Soderator
:banghead: :banghead:
merlin,
some here have cited a test in the states which is supposed to 'prove' all cables sound the same - of course it will because the conditions of the test will ensure it is so.
it doesn't matter what the difference is, the fact that there is one and the test needs to be skewed to satisfy those who say that 2 bit's of wire will sound the same is what i'm saying is wrong.
cheers
julian
merlin,
some here have cited a test in the states which is supposed to 'prove' all cables sound the same - of course it will because the conditions of the test will ensure it is so.
it doesn't matter what the difference is, the fact that there is one and the test needs to be skewed to satisfy those who say that 2 bit's of wire will sound the same is what i'm saying is wrong.
cheers
julian
People claim that (say) cables sound different and that this is nothing to do with conventional electrical properties. To test this we have to remove the effects of the conventional from the test otherwise we will continually prove what we already know and not what is claimed.
Similarly with amplifiers. We know that listeners are sensitive to level differences, so if you don't equalise the levels of the amps all you prove is what you already know, the amps have different gains. It's much easier to simply measure the amp's gain.
Many people believe that various brands of electronic components sound different, but would it prove anything if we did a listening test between two capacitors of different makes and different values? We could prove that rolling off the bass is detectable, but we already know that, and it's independent of capacitor brand.
Paul
Lt Cdr Data
om
well, as wm knows well, I am probably one of the more blinkered people, but I would say everything sounds different, not necessarily better, but I can hear differences in coupling caps, not sure about decoupling much, cables, amplifiers, cd players, and of course, speakers. but not mana
one of the things hifi world has attempted to do has been to predict aural from measured bits, but I have listened to bits with this in mind too(speaker frequency responses bear zippo relation to how they will sound, I have even found some with recessed treble on listening, and seeing the measurements bear no relation to this), and can't find much, I like class B amps as much or better than class A, load of bull IMO, one thing tho', in amps., a lot of the time simpler is better.
one of the things hifi world has attempted to do has been to predict aural from measured bits, but I have listened to bits with this in mind too(speaker frequency responses bear zippo relation to how they will sound, I have even found some with recessed treble on listening, and seeing the measurements bear no relation to this), and can't find much, I like class B amps as much or better than class A, load of bull IMO, one thing tho', in amps., a lot of the time simpler is better.
Last edited by a moderator:
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
Here we go again. Do you think we'll get away with that or will we now have my two favourite topics in one thread?
Lt Cdr Data said:
Sure but do you think it is possible that you 'imagine' the differences? That's the question that I would like to ask cable believers. Are the differences definitely real because you heard them or is also possible that the differences are simply imagined?
I used to 'believe' in cables and used to hear differences. I was certainly convinced by the evidence when I started reading Intenet forums/newsgroups and now accept that I had simply imagined the differences. Last time I tried, I didn't hear differences in cables that I had previously.
I also believe that the only way to be sure is DBT. And I would accept if someone 'passed' a DBT that I was wrong and that (electrically similar) cables do sound different (even if I couldn't hear a difference).
Good question. I was a cables-do-sound-different until forums members suggest I try to listen to them again but with blind comparisons. Since me own comparison I have remain a true sceptic whether the differences are a big as those who never tried it yet. I am trying to keep an open mind. IMHO every fault that people raised against DBT they are equally applicable to non-blind listening. I have not been convince that DBT (long term and short term) is still not the best and most realible way to carry out any comparison by any discussions here or any other forums.7_V said:
