Some sense creeping into the hifi press at last?

[TonyL]

Quote: "Outside of gross electrical mismatches like say Naim NACA5 and Kimber 8TC, *no one* has yet shown an ability to tell apart two speaker
cables under blind conditions. Crucially, no one has yet distinguished
good ol' Home Depot 12AWG zipcord from any of the 'magical mystical'
cables."

Well that backs up my findings and simultaneously blows them out of the water!

I'm very interested in what is a gross electrical mismatch in A5, it appears a very simple and non-pretentious cable visually, though IMHO it does have a 'sound' (albeit one I like). Kimber being 'off' doesn't surprise me in the slightest, I think it is truly horrible stuff!

Tony.

 

[Paul Ranson]

Many solid state amps have a big inductor before their output sockets. This is to keep them stable into capacitative loads at high frequencies. Naim amps don't, and they are a bit marginal on the stability front full stop. So Naim produce a cable that is intrinsically high in inductance and low in capacitance, purely due to its spaced pair construction. Kimber whatever is a woven cable, this makes it intrinsically low in inductance and high in capacitance, again purely due to its contruction or geometry.

So if you have an amp with a big output inductor you probably ought to use either very short cables or low inductance cables. If your amp doesn't have an inductor you can use pretty much any cable but possibly ought to steer clear of long lengths of highly capacitative cable like Kimber.

None of this is surprising to anybody. What is are assertions that cables with similar characteristics sound different. So for example if a Naimie could spot the difference between similar lengths of NACA4 and NACA5 under blind conditions that would be interesting.

Paul

 

[merlin]

If your amp doesn't have an inductor you can use pretty much any cable but possibly ought to steer clear of long lengths of highly capacitative cable like Kimber.

Hi Paul,

how does that square with Kimber being originally used in the professional field for superior sound in large outdoor rigs where long runs were required

 

[Daneel]

You lot still haven't answered any of my questions Yet

Not a clue/Mike B and Pete H, as all cables make little difference, you chaps won't mind swopping to 10mm T^E for a month shouldn't be an issue to you, as by your constant and unwavering beliefs, they make none or very little noticable audiable difference, Quad said at the show last year, so how about it guys

I don't have to do a swap, I'm already using Hitachi speaker wire (about £1.50 a meter as I was impatient and didn't mail order) and interconnects for under £20 each (apart from an 8m sub cable).

What about the cables with all the same measureable parmeters, are they going to sound any difference?

No, all the same.

Come on you've been banging on about for long enough, thoughts suggestions, comments bring them to the thread, problems see Bub

Anytime you believers want to organise a blind test I'll be happy to help set it up (work load permitting).

You see if all amps and cdp's sound the same, and wires make No difference at all, then Bub's cheapy marantz test he does on his mana where he says the sound the same, so (In theroy) apply to all systems (give or take the room variants)
So why arn't they so many almost indentical sounding systems out there?

The reason all systems don't sound the same is down to different speakers, room acoustics (how can you say give or take these!?), furnishings, our position within a room, our mood and our poor acoustic memories to name the main ones. None of this should be news to you so I'm not sure why you asked the question.

To respond to some of Julian questions:

A cable is broken if it strays off a flat frequency response. If it does this there will be a measurable difference and there is no need to do any listening testing as the fact that there is a difference is clear. If it is not designed to have a flat FR then it's not just a cable, it's like hardware EQ.

Where there is no measurable difference non-believers (funny how we use almost religious terms here isn't it? Better not go down that road) assert people will be unable to tell the difference in a blind test. This is the crux which you seem to be unable to see.

yet once more a doubting zealot is fudging figures to suit his own agenda.

What exactly is the agenda of non-believers? In my case I bother to argue in these types of thread because I don't want to see any more newcomers to audio wasting their money. What do I have to gain?

For believers however, especially those who work in the industry, it's not hard to see why they might have an agenda. They may be justifiying their purchases or defending their profits.

 

[Daneel]

Taken from a post by a friend of mine on another forum. It's not the debate we are having here but I found it interesting none the less:

A friend who works in a local electrical retailer shared this following (paraphrased) conversation with me. The retailer's name is identical to that of a large car selling chain in the UK, but pluralised.

Me: So why do you push "premium" cables to people? I know, and you know, they're absolute bollocks.
Him: Retail therapy. My job isn't to sell you, him or anyone else what's best for his needs. My job is to make that person happy. A happy customer is a repeat customer. It's a customer that'll come back and ask for $SPEAKERSNAME$ again. That fills my pay packet now and in the future.
Me: Where does the money go? How much is the markup, so to speak?
Him: I can't tell you exactly, but if I sell £4,000 of equipment and £500 of interconnect, I get more wage on the cables.
Me: I assume the company makes a fair packet on them too?
Him: Not really. The cables are the salesman's perks more than profit for $RETAILERNAME$.
Me: How exactly do you sell these little cables for such an extortionate price? I mean [I pick up a cable nearby, it's a VGA passthrough from an old Creative DXR2) this thing doesn't exactly inspire feelings of grandeur.
Him: Nobody likes to look stupid, Wayne. Someone spending several grand on kit has to justify that purchase to themselves. Who better to fool you than you? I say it's a superior cable with better inherent noise rejection which suppresses jitter and guards against ground loops, resulting in a sound stage of enhanced clarity. We both know that's partly true since any half way decent cable does that, so the law can't touch me. The punter's justification is given, his wallet is open. You can't deny that Monster Cable are decent quality and probably the best you're going to find in any high street retailer. They'd have been shut down under the Trade Descriptions Act long ago if what I tell the guys isn't true.
Me: So basically you list the parameters that any good cable has, but for the premium cable only?
Him: Exactly.
Me: Would you lie about it? Like say some BS about some vaguely defined technical term?
Him: Probably. If it clinches the sale, which I'm there to do, I probably would. The punter knows he wants it, he just needs to feel happy about it. I'm there to make him feel happy about it. I'm not there to tell him it's got zero point zero zero zero three impedance per metre, he hasn't a clue what that means and that ruins his mood.
Me: And if I asked you about the brown box cable?
Him: Nobody asks about those.
Me: But what if I did?
Him: I'd tell you it was sufficient to do the job, I'd probably make sure it was the right kind of cable, since it doesn't do me any good to be selling a TOSLink to someone wanting coaxial but only telling me S/PDIF.
Me: You wouldn't hype it or spin off its praises?
Him: Why? I get virtually nothing for selling that. We don't even like it being there. The sooner you're out of the way, the sooner I can get on with selling something that does pay me.
Me: If I'd just bought a large TV with a good HT setup around it, would you then suggest to me that my purchase is complete with the premium cables?
Him: Absolutely! Punters feel better when they associate quality with everything they buy, happiness, remember? If a guy's just crashed out £4000 to use my last example, on some equipment, then he's expecting to spend a ton on the cabling. It's like a secret society that he's just found the keys for. Everyone likes that feeling. I'm not here to disappoint him, if I offered the cheapy £1 per metre cable, he's going to go somewhere "that knows what they're talking about" and offers the £20 per metre cable. Price is quality and the product isn't important.
Me: And you don't feel bad about that?
Him: No. He's happy. I'm happy. Win-win.
Me: That could be embarrassing if someone who is clued in walks in.
Him: We know how to spot them. They don't look at the prices, they're more examining the kit. When they want something, they don't ask me, they tell me. You'll never hear the words "What would be best for..." out of someone immune to the patter. They know what they want, they know what's best for what they want, they're just here to buy it.
Me: And you don't try the premium cabling pitch on them?
Him: Absolutely not. I'm not going to make myself look bad in front of a whole storefront. Chances are he's got SnRs falling out of his earlobes and a PhD in electrochemistry, I'd be eaten alive.
Me: Those guys don't make you much money then?
Him: But they're not common either.

 

[julian2002]

daneel,
the origional posts about this involved taking 2 cables (any 2 cables) dbt ing them and winning a prize for doing so correctly - it was in reference to a forthcomming article where 3 cables had been dbt'd in hf+. i pointed out that there would be a bunch of caveats attatched to the prize to do with level matching and the cables having similar measurements and that i felt this was tantamount to massaging the results ofthe test to fit an agenda (which i still do). predictably those who for want of a better phrase 'don't believe in cables' confirmed my suspicions and tried to justify them. it seems similar to the situation in the 70's where a drag racer entered a small engined turbo car. all the 'aint no substitute for cubic inches' boys laughed until he absolutely anhialated them on the drag strip. after much whinging by the losers the govorning body ruled that his engine didn't comply with regulations and disqualified him.
nothing you've said sways me from this position.
also i'm struggling to see the relevance of your other post about cable vfm and dealer profits.

cheers


julian

 

[Heath]

A cable is broken if it strays off a flat frequency response. If it does this there will be a measurable difference and there is no need to do any listening testing as the fact that there is a difference is clear. If it is not designed to have a flat FR then it's not just a cable, it's like hardware EQ.

There's no such thing as a cable with a flat frequency response. All cables will have inductance, capacitance and resistance due to their construction, and act like a filter. The trick is to get the LCR to match what your equipment is suited to and such that it doesn't completely mess up the sound by rolling off at the extremes of the audible range.

So, identical cables sound the same (surprise surprise) and cables that use different materials and are constructed differently sound different. ie the argument that all cables sound the same is complete tosh because different manufacturers have different philosophies on cable design. If bellwire, mains cable or cat5 works in your system, then good for you. Personally, I've done blind testing of my home made cables against cables from VDH, Chord and Audioquest and tweaked my cables to give me what I want. I've also dismantled the manufactured cables to see why they each sound different, and guess what, they all have different designs and use different materials.

Heath

 

[wadia-miester]

Dannel,
Do I detect a little angst in your voice?

 

[Daneel]

Dannel,
Do I detect a little angst in your voice?

No. Perhaps a little frustrustration. Marvelous reply by the way. What is this? He must be young and has a low post count so clearly doesn't know what he is talking about? Nice.

 

[Daneel]

There's no such thing as a cable with a flat frequency response. All cables will have inductance, capacitance and resistance due to their construction, and act like a filter. The trick is to get the LCR to match what your equipment is suited to and such that it doesn't completely mess up the sound by rolling off at the extremes of the audible range.

So, identical cables sound the same (surprise surprise) and cables that use different materials and are constructed differently sound different. ie the argument that all cables sound the same is complete tosh because different manufacturers have different philosophies on cable design.

I shall qualify my statement. The cables have a flat FR within a given range (audible) and to a tolerance (low enough to be inaudilbe). I can try to put some figures on those if you like, for starters lets say 5Hz to 25kHz and within 0.05dB. If this is the case the material and construction do not matter as the end result is the same.

 

[wadia-miester]

Dannel,

Frustration eh?, its a common problem amoungst both young and old adults for a various reasons. Prosumption on the other hand by your part is another matter.
But digression aside,
"I shall qualify my statement. The cables have a flat FR within a given range (audible) and to a tolerance (low enough to be inaudilbe). I can try to put some figures on those if you like, for starters lets say 5Hz to 25kHz and within 0.05dB. If this is the case the material and construction do not matter as the end result is the same."
please do put some figures together Dannel, we are keen for your input on this subject matter.

 

[Daneel]

daneel,
the origional posts about this involved taking 2 cables (any 2 cables) dbt ing them and winning a prize for doing so correctly - it was in reference to a forthcomming article where 3 cables had been dbt'd in hf+.

Actually no, that wasn't what the original post was about but that was what the thread became.

i pointed out that there would be a bunch of caveats attatched to the prize to do with level matching and the cables having similar measurements and that i felt this was tantamount to massaging the results ofthe test to fit an agenda (which i still do). <snip>

As Heath as kindly illustrated, he believes cables of different construction will sound different, with no mention of measureable differences. It is possible and feasable to make cables that fit the measurably the same category with different materials and different construction. I argue the sound the same.

Without level matching and checking that the cables are not messing with the sound no one would argue they sound the same.

You still haven't explained what the agenda is.

nothing you've said sways me from this position.
also i'm struggling to see the relevance of your other post about cable vfm and dealer profits.

The point was to show how people get sucked in at entry to the hi-fi world and once in struggle to get back out again. After all, they would have to admit that the load of money they just spent gave no audible benefit.

 

[michaelab]

Oh I don't know - Michael succumbed to the pressure

That's bullshit merlin and you know it

I changed my views on cables based entirely on my own experiences in mine and other people's systems where, when I was honest with myself, I consistently failed to hear any difference. I certainly succumed to the pressure of the cable believers early on my "hifi" days by convincing myself I was hearing differences when I really wasn't

Michael.

 

[Daneel]

Dannel,

Frustration eh?, its a common problem amoungst both young and old adults for a various reasons. Prosumption on the other hand by your part is another matter.
But digression aside,
"I shall qualify my statement. The cables have a flat FR within a given range (audible) and to a tolerance (low enough to be inaudilbe). I can try to put some figures on those if you like, for starters lets say 5Hz to 25kHz and within 0.05dB. If this is the case the material and construction do not matter as the end result is the same."
please do put some figures together Dannel, we are keen for your input on this subject matter.

My name is Daneel not Dannel. I did put in some figures, 5Hz to 25kHz and within 0.05dB.

If treating me like an impudent child makes you feel better please continue, I've had experience of this attitude plenty times before, particularly in hi-fi. It doesn't reflect well on your argument though.

Your disregard and lack of rebuttal for my arguments is telling, but unfortunately not uncommon.

 

[Heath]

I can try to put some figures on those if you like, for starters lets say 5Hz to 25kHz and within 0.05dB. If this is the case the material and construction do not matter as the end result is the same.

It's all well and good thinking up numbers, but the problem with this is that it is a theoretical model - you haven't actually got the cables. If you can come up with some actual examples with frequency sweeps showing that they have the same responses, that's another matter.

The point I was making was that the cable non-believers bang on about how any old cable will do, when it is clear that there are differently constructed cables on the market that have clearly different properties, but when challenged on their views by saying cable A sounds totally different to cable B they then say 'you can't compare them, they don't have the same properties'.

Heath

 

[Daneel]

It's all well and good thinking up numbers, but the problem with this is that it is a theoretical model - you haven't actually got the cables. If you can come up with some actual examples with frequency sweeps showing that they have the same responses, that's another matter.

I'll try to find some FR sweeps for you shortly. From an initial search 0.05dB appear to be too restrictive and a lower tolerance than is required for inaudibilty.

The point I was making was that the cable non-believers bang on about how any old cable will do, when it is clear that there are differently constructed cables on the market that have clearly different properties, but when challenged on their views by saying cable A sounds totally different to cable B they then say 'you can't compare them, they don't have the same properties'.

A standard OCF (I say OCF for its resistance to corosion rather than any difference in electrical properties) cable will have a FR approximately within acceptable bounds.

Define different properties. All that matters to the sound is the FR, which is of course, influenced by resistance, capacitance etc. If you want to make them out of multiple stands, single core, copper silver etc as long as FR stays the same within a tolerance it will sound the same.

From what you have said then, you do agree that cables which measure the same sound the same but you feel that different construction will alter the FR response and so have a different sound?

I am in agreement with that. What I disagree with is people who say that cables which measure the same sound different.

There are two separate issues here. The above one, and which methods of construction and materials used actually change the FR.

 

[sideshowbob]

NACA5 and possibly a few other deliberately-engineered-to-be-different cables aside, my understanding was that just about every cable on the market measured close enough to meet the requirements for the famous test.

-- Ian

 

[7_V]

... All that matters to the sound is the FR, which is of course, influenced by resistance, capacitance etc. If you want to make them out of multiple stands, single core, copper silver etc as long as FR stays the same within a tolerance it will sound the same...

The FR of a cable may not be 'all that matters to the sound'. Could there not be some differences in attack or decay? Is it inconceivable that resonances may be present that are only discernable by taking the time domain into account? Impulse derived measurements may give more information than an FR sweep.

 

[Paul Ranson]

i pointed out that there would be a bunch of caveats attatched to the prize to do with level matching and the cables having similar measurements and that i felt this was tantamount to massaging the results ofthe test to fit an agenda (which i still do).

This is pointless.

I'm not going to offer you a prize for doing something unsurprising and uninteresting, this isn't primary school. I'm going to offer you a prize for doing something surprising, in this case distinguishing audio cables by ear where there is no physical reason for them to sound different.

Cable Believer: I can hear the difference between cables!
Sceptic: Well of course, some cables affect the frequency response of your system or trigger oscillations in your power amp.
CB: No, I mean I can hear differences apart from those. Even if you just turn the wire around it sounds different.
S: OK. I'll give you £10 if you can prove this.
CB: Sure. But only if I can use cables that affect the frequency response and make my amp unstable...

Paul

 

[wadia-miester]

Daneel,
(Spelling I'm afraid is not my forte' & many will testify to this, that wasn't deliberate), your asumption that I'm talking down to you, is indeed telling & most inaccurate on your part.
You did state " If treating me like an impudent child makes you feel better please continue" It doesn't make me feel anything Daneel and implying such is touch unfair I feel.
Suposion on your part seems to stem possibly from this "I've had experience of this attitude plenty times before, particularly in hi-fi. It doesn't reflect well on your argument though."
I too have had my fair share of experiance with your style of attitude, in hifi and may other branches of socitey (particulary professionals), its common enough character trait, that once your broken through the force field exterior, the inside is a little different. usually after the initial 'bumping of sheilds' has been done, a more constructive form of dialogue is achieveable and 'arguements' thus conducted with a little more decorum.
Sorry I'm digressing again, back to subject matter at hand,
your feelings here
"It is possible and feasable to make cables that fit the measurably the same category with different materials and different construction. I argue the sound the same."
Now were getting to the meat & potatoes of the issue, now we have 2 cables, that have indentical constructional techniques, they have identical LRC's, the Spectrum Anayliser reads them both as 'close as it gets', same terminations on both cables, no other Quote yourself "
checking that the cables are not messing with the sound ", ie magnets, quantum filters, resistors, caps etc. They are the same length, they are however constructed from completely different materials, and between 78-92db in the same system, no other changes, they give a different sonic presenation, I may be not the only one that has noticed this effect possibly. This is not an uncommon phenomenon strangely enough.
I would suggest, they sound different nothing more. (but as you've pointed out here I have a vested interest) so prehaps I would say this, its a fair comment and in the same way a passenger in a car crash cannot be taken as a realiable whitness.
So were does that leave us?, I say Potato you say Potatoe.
Evidence, quantifible from both sides is required to silence this once and for all, will it happen?, will either party just use the presented facts & figures to 'guide' their view over one or the other, most proberbly.
Here's a little side bar for you.
Motor vehicle emissions today are tightly controlled, the vehicles them selves use Lambda sensors to correctly gauge the amount of fuel required to run the car efficently, the Lambda (oxygen sensor O2) is cited in the exhaust before the catalytic converter, the O2 sensor, senses the amount of oxygen present in the spent gasses, it measure in volts between 0.1-1.2v if the mixture goes lean, the O2 sensor gives a high voltage indicating to the ecu, to add more fuel, then the O2 (after the next few engine cycles) will read a richer mixture and therefore switch lean, its 'ideal switching voltage' range is .45-.65v say 12 switches in an 20 second time window @ 3000 rpm, this would produce (if all other things we correct, no leaky exhaust/map sensor ok, plugs alright etc) a theorectical air/fuel of 14.7:1 (I atmosphere), or lambda 1 going by the numbers calcs etc.
Note the O2 sensor goes open loop in certain conditions, usally after 4000 rpm/ 3/4+ throttle postions, indicvating its been bypassed and a more fuller fuel/ignition map is presented to the engine.
Now if you want your vechicle to preform better you need to increase the VE volumetric effiency of the engine, and tune it to make more torque/horsepower.
when setting the vehicle up on the rolling road, having a A/R of 14.7:1 or Lambda 1 isn't desirable, most tuned vehicles run a lambda ratio of .889 (rally/circuit cars) to .945<>.975 for tuned road cars.
My point here is theory is good practice and grounding and is essential in any new product design and construction, though hands on testing and development can yeild many and often surprising results that may/may not contridict the 'numbers game'
sorry for the long post