Some sense creeping into the hifi press at last?

Asuming I have understood what you have said correctly, if you can prove this to me in a double blind test (with data to show that the two cables are, within tolerances, measurably equal) I will admit I am wrong and further debate will be unnessesary.

If I misinterpreted your tone I apologise, sometimes it is hard to gauge through text.

BTW, long posts are fine but please, paragraphs/blank lines!

 

Paul, I believe that there will always be a physical reason for anything to sound different to anything else. However, it may be the case that the parameters that we're currently measuring (in this case R C and L) do not encompass this difference. In other words we may be measuring the wrong things.

At the current state of play the sceptics must lay down the precise measurements that they believe cannot be differentiated, for example L, C and R to within +/- X%. This would then be the challenge for the CBs to take up. It's not enough for the sceptics to say there must be no measurable difference and we'll come up with the measurements within the next few years.

 

Thanks for relating this observation of yours. Would I ever change my mind? Yes certainly. If enough people repeat observation like this under condition that you describe how you have done them and we are satisfied it is blind and there are no other bias. Theory and hypothesis is good. However, there is nothing that could replace well conducted experiments.

 

The argument now goes circular.

Since cables obviously sound different there must be a physical reason and hence no mystery....

I think there is good research determining the threshold of detectibility of frequency response aberrations. So defining 'physically similar' could be done in those terms rather than by specifying LCR tolerances. And if we establish that our cables aren't particularly microphonic or otherwise noisy we'd have the basis for a test.

A less difficult to arrange test would be of cable directionality. I take it every 'cable believer' believes in this too?

Paul

 

Paul, didn't you find that your LP12 arm cable is microphonic when tapped?

 

Well my position is certainly that all subjective differences have their basis in physical reality. That physical difference is or will be measurable.

Taking loudspeakers, the field in which I have the most expertise, it's clear (and has already been pointed out in this thread) that two speakers with very similar frequency response curves do not necessarily sound alike. However, they may measure very differently in other ways, for instance their 'waterfall' or impedance measurements.

Not necessarily.

 

Since A/C does what it wants to do this may prove a slight fly in the ontiment, DC on the other hand?,

 

Well, at http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&output=gplain the guy in the UK who is offering the £1000 DBT cable challenge says:

"It's never been denied that we can measure *much* better than we can
hear! The ground rules for speaker cable have always been 'roughly the
same', with a rule-of-thumb of 20% variation in RLC parameters, or the
better (and almost certainly more lenient!) alternative of
level-matching within 0.1dB from 20Hz to 20kHz."

So if cables match to within 0.1dB from 20Hz to 20kHz and if you get 16 or more (I believe) correct identifactions in the DBT, you win £1000. In the US, you win about $5000. Might be even more now, though. Google audio groups has all the info.

 

?? Anyway, all audio cables (speaker, IC, digital) carry A/C anyway.

Michael.

 

I completely agree.

BTW any speaker that doesn't sound like a Quad ESL is obviously wrong...

Paul

 

I've found arm cables that were microphonic when tapped with the volume fully advanced. I think this was with an MM cart and I don't recall the amp, probably Naim.

Paul

 

Oh yes, I suppose it could have been the cable connections to the amplifier which were microphonic, rather than the cable itself.

 

Having grown up listening to ESL 57s and IMF Studio Monitors, I agree. However, unsurprisingly, I think that the ESL's bass performance can be easily bettered and that it's possible to go even faster than an ESL.

Surprised? I believe that a high-end speaker designer's goal should be to get the ESL sound but with better bass and higher WAF.

However, we digress ...

 

The only cable I have ever listened to at length to figure out directionality is a Deltec Black Slink interconnect (I use it between the phono stage and amp). The only reason I have spent any time on this is that the cable is not marked for direction. It is also constructed in a way that logically directionality may be significant – the screen is taken to a separate earth connector at one end and not connected at the other end (i.e. it is physically different!). Depending which way round I use it I have the choice of connecting the earth connector to the earth post on either the amp or the phono stage.

This cable does definitely sound different dependant on which way it is used. With the earth connector at the amp end it is quite bright and forward, the other way round is smoother and more relaxed. I have opted for the latter as in my system it sounds better that way. The difference is reasonably pronounced and I am certain I could blind test it (I have no idea which way is “rightâ€Â, nor do I care!).

There is no way I could be arsed listening for direction on anything that was already marked with arrows!

Tony.

 

Interesting - with the Black Slink you *know* you are hearing the effect of the shield.

During it's manufacture, DPA drew the wires off the reel then swapped half the conductors end for end, i.e antiparallel. The idea was to ensure the cable itself, sans shield, was 'non-directional'.

 

That's how I would view it - I haven't measured the response from my cables, just used my ears. But since different metals have different conductive properties, how do you propose to make equivalent cables out of different materials without altering the design of the construction to compensate for these differences?

Heath

 

Martin,

you do run the Black slink don't you?

 

michael,
being pedantic there are some cables that carry dc - i have 3 of them linking my psu's to my pre. but then i've got a pre amp powered by this new fangled stuff called electricity
cheers


julian

 

Ahh, Harbeth.

 

OK Julian, I deliberately avoided mentioning DC power cables as they are a compartively rare thing.

Re Black Slink and other "pseudo" balanced cables being directional because of a shield that's only connected at one is quite different from the cable "directionality" that most CBs are on about.

Michael.